Outsourcing

[DefiantSix]

I drive a Ford.

In other words, it was Heccho in el Mexico, FGL.  Probably at the same plant that made mine.

The more I read this guy, the more moley he smells.  He comes here every couple of weeks or so, and whenever he's pressed for details on a position he's taken, the details either never add up, or they sound one step removed from liberal talking points, or he gets flustered and resorts to name-calling like any other Dim'Rat.  If I was a suspicious sort, I'd believe that this guy was an agent provocateur, sent here to stir up shit on a conservative board, and then get screen-shots of the rest of us writing "heated, emotionally charged (aka: seditious) rhetoric".

But that would be "paranoid" and "delusional" of me, wouldn't it? 

[dutch508]

In other words, it was Heccho in el Mexico, FGL.  Probably at the same plant that made mine.

The more I read this guy, the more moley he smells.  He comes here every couple of weeks or so, and whenever he's pressed for details on a position he's taken, the details either never add up, or they sound one step removed from liberal talking points, or he gets flustered and resorts to name-calling like any other Dim'Rat.  If I was a suspicious sort, I'd believe that this guy was an agent provocateur, sent here to stir up shit on a conservative board, and then get screen-shots of the rest of us writing "heated, emotionally charged (aka: seditious) rhetoric".

But that would be "paranoid" and "delusional" of me, wouldn't it? 

Nah. He's a dumbass. Might be a DUmbass. Could be a ronulan.

But a dumbass for sure.

[zeitgeist]

If you actually study the evolution of manufacturing in the US over the past forty years, you would know that the loss of skilled and semiskilled jobs in this country is not due to "outsourcing".

Example:  In 1965, an automobile assembly plant with three lines operating three shifts would employ approximately 9,000 people......unskilled, semiskilled, and skilled.  Today that same plant will employ approximately 2,000 workers, and most of the semiskilled and skilled jobs are gone.   jobs like:

Tool and die makers
Machinists
Welders
Painters
Inspectors
Pipefitters
Production schedulers

These jobs have not been "outsourced", as many of these plants are still operating in the US......what has happened is these workers were replaced by........AUTOMATION

Machinists, tool and die makers, and pipefitters were replaced by CRC machines

Painters, welders, and inspectors were replaced by robotics

Production schedulers, clerks, bookeepers, and accounting personnel were replaced by office automation systems.

With this transition, an entire new group of technological jobs were created, to design, build, maintain and program the robotics and automation systems, and these jobs require a different, and somewhat higher set of skills........during this ongoing transition, some workers will adapt, learn a new skill set, and continue to participate......some will not, and be left behind, obsolete.

It has been happening since the industrial revolution, and will continue.  

doc

Once again you are exactly right Doc.  I was just reading something similar a few weeks back (in Barron's I think).  Problem is the truth doesn't fit with most liberal memes so they choose to ignore it. 

Another way to think of it, most liberals are Luddites who see our best days behind us and their glass half empty. They, who believe in nothing, will fall for anything; Obama is living proof of that.  They want to go back to piece work and hand dipped candles, to the romanticized the past of their dreams, to Renaissance Fairs in droves they go.     

[Mustang]

Nah. He's a dumbass.

The more I read this guy, the more moley he smells. 

I guess you guys got a permanent hard-on for me. Probably will give me continued shit if I keep posting on these forums. Nothing I can do about it, but all I'll say is the feeling is mutual for now. 

[bkg]

I make no apologies for working on the Chris Christie campaign. I'm an uber-lib? How well do you know me? How do you know what knowledge I have?
And yeah I have a job, but what the hell does that have to do anything? Am I supposed to feel bad because I worked on the Chris Chrisitie campaign and didn't have a job for a few months?

Get off your high horse.

You make me chuckle... You elitist hack.

[Crazy Horse]

If you actually study the evolution of manufacturing in the US over the past forty years, you would know that the loss of skilled and semiskilled jobs in this country is not due to "outsourcing".

Example:  In 1965, an automobile assembly plant with three lines operating three shifts would employ approximately 9,000 people......unskilled, semiskilled, and skilled.  Today that same plant will employ approximately 2,000 workers, and most of the semiskilled and skilled jobs are gone.   jobs like:

Tool and die makers
Machinists
Welders
Painters
Inspectors
Pipefitters
Production schedulers

These jobs have not been "outsourced", as many of these plants are still operating in the US......what has happened is these workers were replaced by........AUTOMATION

Machinists, tool and die makers, and pipefitters were replaced by CRC machines

Painters, welders, and inspectors were replaced by robotics

Production schedulers, clerks, bookeepers, and accounting personnel were replaced by office automation systems.

With this transition, an entire new group of technological jobs were created, to design, build, maintain and program the robotics and automation systems, and these jobs require a different, and somewhat higher set of skills........during this ongoing transition, some workers will adapt, learn a new skill set, and continue to participate......some will not, and be left behind, obsolete.

It has been happening since the industrial revolution, and will continue.  

doc

Not true doc.............well it is, but not where I work.

We have tool and die makers, welders, inspector...and on and on.

Also an inspector can never be replaced by automation in what I do, checking labels on bottles, there are some awesome vision systems out there that can check 100's a minute and more.  However checking the true position of a bore projecting out to 115 inches into space can't be done without a skilled worker making it happen automatically.

We will always have machinist, and I really hope that some of the other countries continue to train ours.............I know a certain German company in their apprentiship makes them hand tool things to learn, where most American companies call em journeymen and can't find their ass with both hands.

On pipefitters doc...........I want to see em build a ship automated.

Regardless we agree on the premise of what you are saying. 

Also Unions have caused most of this outsourcing.

Oh yeah and Mustang is a dumbass and couldn't find his ass with both hands............then again if he just grabbed his neck he'd find it as his heads attached

[Chris_]

Not true doc.............well it is, but not where I work.

On pipefitters doc...........I want to see em build a ship automated.

Dheck out a Japanese or Korean shipyard (where most of the large commercial vessels are built today).......virtually all robotics, ships are built in sections, placed by automated cranes, even the wiring is installed robotically, and sections welded together by robotic welders.......the only "pipefitters" are the ones running the systems.  Also a robotic welder can lay down a perfect seam EVERY time, without flaw or defect (and monitors its own work with an attached x-ray scanner).......simply amazing to watch.

doc

[zeitgeist]

There is an interesting article in this weeks Barron's which touches on outsourcing here:

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB127569220682101261.html

If you do not have an account you might be able to get it via bugmenot or just get an actual print copy to read at most libraries. 

WITH THE LANDSCAPE LITTERED WITH FAILED banks and fallen corporate icons, and with U.S. households and Washington deep in debt, writing America's obituary is back in vogue. Just as popular is the coronation of China as the world's new economic superpower.

From the ashes of the U.S.-led global financial meltdown, a new world order is in the making. According to popular opinion, America is declining, while China is rising.

The consensus could be wide of the mark. Yes, there is plenty wrong with the U.S. The economic challenges before the nation are Herculean. Yet there is plenty right with America. ....

{fair use slug}

 A little peek more at what to expect if you go there:

The U.S. economy is the largest and most productive on the planet. With just 4.6% of the global population, the U.S. accounts for roughly one-quarter of global output, generating more output in a year than the next three largest economies (Japan, China and Germany) combined. America's economy is three times the size of China's; the per capita income of China is only about 10% of that of the U.S.

Warning to lurking primitives:  Reading actual facts from this article will cause you to recalibrate your world view. Your hive view of a crumbling America will be dashed by reality.



Side note to the machinist situation:  You need the raw material to train.  Math skills, science, and physics are a key component but very few I saw had them.  It is true more is being done by computers and you can hire operators who just stand pendant in hand but even they need to know when the tool is dull.  You can never totally fool proof the system the schools keep turning better fools.  Education not indoctrination is the key. I could spend all morning writing about the problems one faces with kids entering the workforce today starting with WORK ETHIC.  But I wont.  Not here anyhow.

 

[Celtic Rose]

We don't see it as a good thing......we are pragmatic enough to realize that outsourcing is a necessary thing.......in our economy, if the US economy is going to survive.

Since you are so frugal, would you take a job that pays $1.78/hour?

I didn't think so........but those hourly rates for production work are the "competition".....and if you won't take it, then someone somewhere else in the world would.........

As an aside, that job doesn't include:  Vacation, health insurance, retirement, or maternity leave......

doc

I personally don't believe that it is moral to support employment at those standards, which is why I consciously try to avoid buying buying products made in China, not that the standards in most other countries are much better.  I have a hierarchy I look at:

Made in USA first, then Canada, Europe, Japan, Korea, then anywhere but China, and I try to buy Chinese made only as a last resort. 

I don't want companies to fight to reach the "China Price," the cost of manufacturing in China, because I believe that is immoral to support those working standards. 

As a conservative, however, I don't support the government telling me what to buy through tariffs.  It is my personal decision, and I'll tell people why I avoid buying some things, and hopefully it will have enough of a ripple effect to make a difference. 

I realize that US consumers demand low prices, but I wonder how many consider the cost of those low prices to other people. 

[IassaFTots]

As a conservative, however, I don't support the government telling me what to buy through tariffs.  It is my personal decision, and I'll tell people why I avoid buying some things, and hopefully it will have enough of a ripple effect to make a difference. 

What you said.  And, it is becoming easier to find products Made in USA.  Walmart responded to the backlash I guess, and they have a pretty good selection.  It can be a challenge, but it can be done.

On a side note, my car is an American car, Hecho in Belgium.