Author Topic: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?  (Read 8304 times)

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Airlift 2008?

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President Bush said Wednesday that the Pentagon had begun a “vigorous and ongoing” humanitarian mission to ease the suffering in Georgia, and that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would travel to France and then to Georgia to work for a settlement of the crisis…

Mr. Bush said that a transport plane with medical supplies was already on its way to Georgia, and that American air and naval forces would carry out the aid mission. And he said pointedly that Russia must not interfere with aid arriving in Georgia by air, land or water…

However, minutes after Mr. Bush’s comments, President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia characterized the import of the American aid as “definitely an American military presence” and called it a “turning point.”…
“What I expected specifically from America was to secure our airport and to secure our seaports,” he went on, concluding that the American presence would do so. “The main thing now is that the Georgian Tbilisi airport will be permanently under control.”

Saakashvili is spinning hard to make this look like a U.S. cavalry charge, going so far as to call it a “military-humanitarian operation” and claiming that Georgian ports will now be under U.S. “control.” The Pentagon quickly denied it, although given Bush’s warning to Russia not to interfere with aid, things are going to get mighty dicey if they move on Tbilisi and take the airport. Charles Johnson says he’s hearing news reports that the Russian army’s within 15 miles of the city; I haven’t seen anything like that, although I did see earlier that Russia started moving towards the city before veering off in another direction. As of this morning, Russian troops occupied Gori and others were crossing into South Ossetia; Human Rights Watch claims they’re burning villages in the territory populated by ethnic Georgians.

My reaction to Bush’s announcement was the same as Ace’s, and doubtless what Saakashvili has in mind: They’re going to insert a token American force, a la South Korea, as a “tripwire” that the Russians dare not cross lest it provoke a wider war. Per the emphasis on the mission being purely humanitarian, it sounds like Bush is eager to douse that speculation — but needless to say, if U.S. troops do get caught in the crossfire, it’s anyone’s guess what happens. If you believe the Times, the U.S. brought this all on itself by sending “mixed messages” to Saakashvili that don’t really sound all that mixed. Publicly the administration’s shown consistent solidarity, and privately they’ve made it abundantly clear that he shouldn’t do anything nutty like, er, invade South Ossetia. Assuming that’s true, he’s playing dumb, going on CNN this morning to say he appreciated McCain’s encouraging words yesterday but that words don’t mean much vis-a-vis those all-important deeds they’re counting on.

Well, he’s got some deeds now. Stand by for updates as the Cold War II brinksmanship escalates. Exit quotation: “We understand that this current Georgian leadership is a special project of the United States, but one day the United States will have to choose between defending its prestige over a virtual project or real partnership which requires joint action.”

Update: This warrants the always rare double exit quotation. Sit back, close your eyes, and meditate on this while you run through your mental list of despots, terrorists, and assorted other cretins that Russia’s been selling weapons to for decades:

Quote
“Bush’s speech said nothing of how Georgia was armed all these years, including by the United States,” [Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov] said, adding, “We have more than once warned our partners that this is a dangerous game.”

Update: Well, we’re now in a position where one or the other side is going to have to call the other’s bluff or lose face.

Just the position you want to be in with two superpowers armed to the teeth with nukes.

Quote
“This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it,” Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said. “Things have changed.”

Update: Putin’s just taunting them now.

Quote
“Come with us, beauty, we’re going to Tbilisi!” one of the soldiers bellowed at a photographer in a sleeveless shirt along the road. Other troops grinned and brandished their weapons, and one hung his bare feet out the back of a truck. Another, a machine gunner riding atop an armored vehicle, wore a bandanna and a black T-shirt with the word “Russia” emblazoned in the red, blue and white colors of the national flag.

Asked from the side of the road, the soldiers shouted that their destination was Tbilisi — “With no detours,” one said. But then they veered abruptly into a field about an hour’s drive from the capital and camped conspicuously within sight of the road before the sun went down.

The message was hard to miss: The Russian military is still the landlord in swaths of Georgia, and its forces remain in easy striking distance of the country’s capital.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/13/showdown-bush-sends-humanitarian-aid-to-georgia-as-russians-advance/
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2008, 11:15:25 PM »
Yeah, partners.  That's just what I want to be with a rabid bear.

I don't think the Russians realize just what kind of a hole they have put themselves in.  They thought their little Georgia operation would go over and they would have the Sudetenl.....oop, I mean Ossetia along with the oil pipeline. 

Now all those dogs the Sovie...oops, Russians (there I go again)....kicked around for so long are baring their teeth.  Russia might handle Georgia.  Russia can't handle Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and probably a few others though.

Not to mention, they won't be getting into the WTO or other such organizations anytime soon now.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 03:29:41 AM »
they left poti according to radio france, and Gori as well.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 08:55:37 AM »
I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 09:39:23 AM »
I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
This puts us at a terrible crucible.

If we admit Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Republic of Georgia into NATO we put Russia on notice...

...BUT...

...it is exactly this "encroachment" of NATO that precipitated the current Russian aggression and we run the risk of NATO being obligated to war with Russia.

Certainly expelling Putin's regime from the WTO, G-8 and NATO conference are good, first steps. His bluff about aiding us vis-a-vis Iran's nuclear ambitions should be called and we should remind hism that Saakashvili is not Milosevic and Russian affronts to restive Grozny evaporate its moral high ground about how to deal with secessionists.

Bush's "Tsiblisi airlift" and ordering US ships into the Black Sea are strokes of genius I didn't think he had the stones to pull considering his lame-duck status and presumable war-weariness; but its hazards are evident and grave in the extreme.

We certainly need to remind ourselves that Russia has not, does not and will not share our conceptions of law, morality and the purpose of statehood (common defense and welfare vs. power and prestige) and they can be counted as friends only by the barest of definitions.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 09:55:56 AM »
I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
This puts us at a terrible crucible.

If we admit Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Republic of Georgia into NATO we put Russia on notice...

...BUT...

...it is exactly this "encroachment" of NATO that precipitated the current Russian aggression and we run the risk of NATO being obligated to war with Russia.

The US is not actually the obstacle to admitting them, that friction is coming from our 'freedom-loving and courageous' allies in Old Europe.  From the point of view of the new prospects, there is no better time than the present since Russia is not in a military or political position to do much about it now, but later their position will improve so the best thing for the former 'Republics" and satellites to do is to line up with an opposing, protective power sooner rather than later.  The much-disputed ABM radar in the Czech Republic is a case in point, there is probably nothing that would make them want it more than Russia's recent aggressive behavior in Georgia, because prior to that Russia was making belligerent noises toward them in an effort to keep them from proceeding with it...now the Czechs have a far more immediate mission for it than giving early warning to other, more-westerly countries of a strike by Iranian or Pakistani missiles which don't yet exist.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 10:32:48 AM »
The US is not actually the obstacle to admitting them, that friction is coming from our 'freedom-loving and courageous' allies in Old Europe.  From the point of view of the new prospects, there is no better time than the present since Russia is not in a military or political position to do much about it now, but later their position will improve so the best thing for the former 'Republics" and satellites to do is to line up with an opposing, protective power sooner rather than later.  The much-disputed ABM radar in the Czech Republic is a case in point, there is probably nothing that would make them want it more than Russia's recent aggressive behavior in Georgia, because prior to that Russia was making belligerent noises toward them in an effort to keep them from proceeding with it...now the Czechs have a far more immediate mission for it than giving early warning to other, more-westerly countries of a strike by Iranian or Pakistani missiles which don't yet exist.
I'm reasonably sure the Euro-philes at Foggy Bottom are as much an obstacle as the triangulating, miso-Americanist allies across the pond.

To be sure those closest to Putin love us the most. Simply standing on principle will do wonders for our principles and the crippling of the idea of expansionist statism. Imagine 200,000 Georgian civilians standing in front of Russian tanks bolstered by NATO humanitarian airlifts. Condi made me very proud when she flat-out declared that the atrocities of 1968 are not free for the repeating.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 10:48:37 AM »
I think the unintended consequence of this for Russia is that all the former republics and Pact nations which are not merely Russian satraps now will be driven into the arms of protective alliances with opposing great powers, rather than cowed into submission to the Russians.
This puts us at a terrible crucible.

If we admit Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Republic of Georgia into NATO we put Russia on notice...

...BUT...

...it is exactly this "encroachment" of NATO that precipitated the current Russian aggression and we run the risk of NATO being obligated to war with Russia.

Certainly expelling Putin's regime from the WTO, G-8 and NATO conference are good, first steps. His bluff about aiding us vis-a-vis Iran's nuclear ambitions should be called and we should remind hism that Saakashvili is not Milosevic and Russian affronts to restive Grozny evaporate its moral high ground about how to deal with secessionists.

Bush's "Tsiblisi airlift" and ordering US ships into the Black Sea are strokes of genius I didn't think he had the stones to pull considering his lame-duck status and presumable war-weariness; but its hazards are evident and grave in the extreme.

We certainly need to remind ourselves that Russia has not, does not and will not share our conceptions of law, morality and the purpose of statehood (common defense and welfare vs. power and prestige) and they can be counted as friends only by the barest of definitions.

they can't be expelled from the G-8... I don't know why people keep saying that, when the Russians themselves will have to agree to be expelled in order for it to happen.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 10:51:12 AM »

they can't be expelled from the G-8... I don't know why people keep saying that, when the Russians themselves will have to agree to be expelled in order for it to happen.
The other 7 can quit the G-8 and reform it minus Russia quite easily.

All it takes it re-printing the letterhead and taking a set of dinner plates off the table.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 11:03:46 AM »

they can't be expelled from the G-8... I don't know why people keep saying that, when the Russians themselves will have to agree to be expelled in order for it to happen.
The other 7 can quit the G-8 and reform it minus Russia quite easily.

All it takes it re-printing the letterhead and taking a set of dinner plates off the table.


that is simply not going to happen.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 11:32:58 AM »
that is simply not going to happen.
Because of a lack of practical options or intestinal fortitude?

Near as I've seen Russia is not exactly a constructive member of the G-8 let alone the international community as a whole. To say Europe needs Russian gas/resources/industry ignores the flip-side that notes Russia needs European revenue. Europe has at least 2 other spheres of influence to shop at (the US and China would love to scoop up their business) but Russia is more vulnerable on the revenue front.

Still, should Russia be punished and how? I think in the long-term this escapade will have backfired on Puty-poot.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 11:56:16 AM »
that is simply not going to happen.
Because of a lack of practical options or intestinal fortitude?

Near as I've seen Russia is not exactly a constructive member of the G-8 let alone the international community as a whole. To say Europe needs Russian gas/resources/industry ignores the flip-side that notes Russia needs European revenue. Europe has at least 2 other spheres of influence to shop at (the US and China would love to scoop up their business) but Russia is more vulnerable on the revenue front.

Still, should Russia be punished and how? I think in the long-term this escapade will have backfired on Puty-poot.

Because Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe.  There is always another customer for oil.  Where will Europe get that 40% that Russia supplies if they stop buying from them?  I'm pretty sure the Chinese would love to get some Russian oil.  Besides some rhetoric, we can't do anything to them.  The truth of the matter is, we won't risk war for Georgia. 
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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2008, 12:07:35 PM »
Will we risk war exclusively for Georgia? Probably not but this isn't exclusively about Georgia and we're already risking war with our aid flights and naval deployments into the Black Sea.

Quote
US President George W. Bush assured leaders of Ukraine and Lithuania on Thursday that he remains fully committed to "a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity," the White House said.
In his conversations with Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus and Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Bush stressed US "solidarity" with Georgia in its conflict with Russia, according to spokeswoman Dana Perino.

"All the leaders stressed the importance of standing by a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity, and agreed on the need for Russia to stop the violence, abide by the ceasefire and withdraw its forces," she said.

Perino had a brutally dismissive response to reports that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the world can "forget about" Georgian sovereignty, describing it as meaningless "bluster" with no effect on US policy.

"Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change, no matter what anybody says, and so I would consider that bluster coming from the foreign minister of Russia, and we will ignore it," she said.

[whoa!  :o]

Perino also said it was too soon to be sure that Russia was abiding by its ceasefire agreement, but told reporters: "We do hope it's trending in the right direction."

She also warned Russia, whose forces have blockaded the town of Gori, that "we expect that our humanitarian aid would be allowed to get in by air, land or sea," but added that she did not know of any instances where it had been barred.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080814143153.wl4ine9y&show_article=1

But again we are left to wonder: if and how Russia should be punished. The poo-poo-isms are well known and worn; this claim of US/EU/NATO impotence is unfounded.
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2008, 12:14:07 PM »
Will we risk war exclusively for Georgia? Probably not but this isn't exclusively about Georgia and we're already risking war with our aid flights and naval deployments into the Black Sea.

Quote
US President George W. Bush assured leaders of Ukraine and Lithuania on Thursday that he remains fully committed to "a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity," the White House said.
In his conversations with Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus and Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Bush stressed US "solidarity" with Georgia in its conflict with Russia, according to spokeswoman Dana Perino.

"All the leaders stressed the importance of standing by a sovereign, free Georgia and its territorial integrity, and agreed on the need for Russia to stop the violence, abide by the ceasefire and withdraw its forces," she said.

Perino had a brutally dismissive response to reports that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the world can "forget about" Georgian sovereignty, describing it as meaningless "bluster" with no effect on US policy.

"Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change, no matter what anybody says, and so I would consider that bluster coming from the foreign minister of Russia, and we will ignore it," she said.

[whoa!  :o]

Perino also said it was too soon to be sure that Russia was abiding by its ceasefire agreement, but told reporters: "We do hope it's trending in the right direction."

She also warned Russia, whose forces have blockaded the town of Gori, that "we expect that our humanitarian aid would be allowed to get in by air, land or sea," but added that she did not know of any instances where it had been barred.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080814143153.wl4ine9y&show_article=1

But again we are left to wonder: if and how Russia should be punished. The poo-poo-isms are well known and worn; this claim of US/EU/NATO impotence is unfounded.

its not unfounded.  Besides saying "shame on you" nothing will be done.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2008, 12:27:53 PM »
You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.

I've asked  if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.

All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2008, 12:38:34 PM »
You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.

I've asked  if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.

All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.

As you appear to have determined snugs, JM is our resident Russian apologist......one might deduce that he longs for the heady days of the old USSR.....

doc
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2008, 12:41:03 PM »
You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.

I've asked  if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.

All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.

"Because Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe.  There is always another customer for oil.  Where will Europe get that 40% that Russia supplies if they stop buying from them?  I'm pretty sure the Chinese would love to get some Russian oil.  Besides some rhetoric, we can't do anything to them.  The truth of the matter is, we won't risk war for Georgia"  What does that mean?  Try to interpret it.  Ok, that would just be a waste of time for you.  Let me interpret it for you.  Russia can only be "punished" by people saying "shame on you", nothing else.  The Europeans don't have "intestinal fortitude" because they like Russian Oil.  Whether or not they should be punished isn't clear yet, since the facts as to who started what are not yet set in stone.

is that good enough, or do I have to write it phonetically for you to understand?
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2008, 12:47:13 PM »
You're a tremendous wealth of non-answers.

I've asked  if Russia should be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked how Russia could be punished...you don't answer.

I've asked if it would be punished would it be due to a lack of practical means of intestinal fortitude...you don't answer.

All very direct and straightforward questions. If all you can muster in any given thread is, "No, not really" I can see how you can so easily be pegged as a Putin apologist although I think the truth lies closer to just be a limp-wristed contrarian.

As you appear to have determined snugs, JM is our resident Russian apologist......one might deduce that he longs for the heady days of the old USSR.....

doc

In order to be a "Russian apologist", you have to be defending them.  Please, tvdoc, show me where i have.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2008, 12:52:23 PM »
Whether or not they should be punished isn't clear yet, since the facts as to who started what are not yet set in stone.

is that good enough, or do I have to write it phonetically for you to understand?

I would call an invasion of a sovereign state by military units of a neighboring state without the permission of the legitimate government to be an "act of war", regardless of the provocation,....

Do we need to point a rifle at your head for you to understand THAT?

doc
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Offline JohnMatrix

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2008, 12:55:13 PM »
Whether or not they should be punished isn't clear yet, since the facts as to who started what are not yet set in stone.

is that good enough, or do I have to write it phonetically for you to understand?

I would call an invasion of a sovereign state by military units of a neighboring state without the permission of the legitimate government to be an "act of war", regardless of the provocation,....

Do we need to point a rifle at your head for you to understand THAT?

doc

its alot more complicated then that.
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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2008, 01:11:36 PM »
its alot more complicated then that.

No it is not......

Nuances are for apologists.......the simple fact is that the Russians invaded with armored combat units, and they need to have their collective butts kicked for that.  If they have political issues with Georgia, they have other means of making their point. 

This is more of Putin's saber-rattling, like his recent habit of sending his ancient "Bear" flights near US Naval assets.  I think we should splash a couple, and that crap would stop. Embarass the hell out of them with the world watching....

If it wasn't for the fact that they are sitting on a large number of nuclear weapons that they can't afford to provide adequate security for,  the world would place them in roughly the same category with France........"all hat, and no cattle".......

doc
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2008, 01:26:03 PM »
To say we are optionless is demonstrably untrue as we are using our military to confront Russia with a tripwire. Maybe NATO can't summon 300,000 troops and a trillion dollars to fight but Russia has been asked to consider how much it does want to risk a de facto war with the US/EU/NATO with our flights and navy rubbing up close to them. US rhetoric is far from capitulatory and only getting stronger if not downright undiplomatic.

As well it should...

Moral highground notwithstanding US security is pretty much guaranteed in the modern world, or only perceivable threats coming from latent powers that must first expand in order to be able to challenge us. Well, if they must first expand we do ourselves the favor of preventing those expansions.

Not to mention the fact that peaceable, consensual governments OUGHT to be defended as a matter of principle.

To say the EU and NATO would remain idle when prominent members such as Poland, Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and others not only fear Russia but have been threatened directly or otherwise ignores reality. They are vital members of their respective bodies and their concerns cannot be dismissed under pretenses of impotence real or imagined. No amount of appeasement, real-politicking or gutless isolationism is going to convince them to accept Russian tanks int heir streets ever again without a fight.

How about Turkey? Are they eager to see would-be imperialists on their border, threatening the Bosphorus and Dardenelles while pissing-off the organizations Turkey is or wishes to be a part of?

Oil can be bought elsewhere as--if not more--easily as it can be sold elsewhere. If the Reds wanna sell to the ChiComs may Allah bless their efforts to cut money out from under the little sheet-heads south of them. I hope they enjoy sailing tankers to the far side of the planet or piping it across the asian continent with all the logistical and security concerns that entails.

Furthermore, Russian efforts to draw legal/moral comparisons to the invasion of Iraq and the dismemberment of Serbia while pretending of Ahzerbijian and Chechnya never happened is laughable.


Quote
its alot more complicated then that.
It's only the dismissive contrarianisms that are simplistic.

Quote from: TV Doc
This is more of Putin's saber-rattling, like his recent habit of sending his ancient "Bear" flights near US Naval assets.  I think we should splash a couple, and that crap would stop. Embarass the hell out of them with the world watching....
I dunno about splashing but we can send a message without acts of war but it does seem those flights can no longer be simply dismissed as sleeping with one eye open.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2008, 02:12:56 PM »
So the wind, reap the blowback:

Quote
By VANESSA GERA and MONIKA SCISLOWSKA, Associated Press Writers
26 minutes ago

WARSAW, Poland - Poland and the United States reached an agreement Thursday that will see a battery of American missiles established inside Poland, the prime minister said, announcing a plan that has infuriated Russia and raised the specter of an escalation of tension with the region's communist-era master.
 
The deal, which Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said was to be signed later Thursday in Warsaw by Poland and the United States, includes what he called a "mutual commitment" between the two nations — beyond that of NATO — to come to each other's assistance in case of danger.

That was an obvious reference to the force and ferocity with which Russia rolled into Georgia in recent days, taking the key city of Gori and apparently burning and destroying Georgian military outposts and airfields.

Tusk said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would be too slow in coming to Poland's defense if Poland were threatened and that the bloc would take "days, weeks to start that machinery."

"Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people. Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict," Tusk said.

"This is a step toward real security for Poland in the future," he added.

A U.S. official in Washington said "it looks as if we're near agreement, and we hope to make a joint announcement today." The official spoke on condition of anonymity ahead of a formal announcement.

Tusk, speaking in a televised interview from the capital, said the United States agreed to Polish proposals that it help augment its defenses in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors.

Tusk said that the U.S. met the key Polish demands "concerning the permanent presence of Patriots, missiles that will be able to effectively protect our territory."

"The Americans have accepted these postulates," he said on TVN24, an all-news channel.

The deal was reached after more than 18 months of back-and-forth, often terse, negotiations.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/poland_us_missile_defense

Good job, Vlad the Inhaler.
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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2008, 04:45:25 PM »
If we had only listened to General Patton.

Any idea what type of warships are going into the Black Sea??

I don't believe that Turkey is just goingto stand by kicking up dust and saying ahh shucks. The damn Russians barely missed hitting the pipeline.......................what the pipeline had to do with S.O......................... :mental: Actually it didn't have anything to do other than show their hand and their purpose.

The only NATO country.................I'm sorry, I think they left NATO, but require a seat and other verbage on equipment.............France, will do nothing................just like they did nothing about Iraq except try and succeed in making money from arm and oil sales with Iraq prior to us destroying the iraqi Army.

And saying we can't muster 300,000 troops to attack Russia is absurd. At one time conventionally the Russians were a fierce opponent........................today they aren't. They have no control over the seas........................we have as member of NATO and allies with their most advanced aircraft..............not a problem. If remembering correctly, they copied all of our weapons and platforms for the most part.

And with what MSB just posted..........................I will put faith in the Poles.............the ones I've met that are new here, 1st generation, second.......third......whatever are more patriotic and love America more than some DAMN Americans.

No Buffs or B2's would ever be sent into Russia if we were at war as that would escalate to where it shouldn't.

Enough........................Russia invaded a souverign country.......................... :bird:
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: Russia v. Georgia, US Airlift & Naval Manuevers: Should We be Nervous?
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2008, 05:43:48 PM »
I'll put up another thing for consideration. 

Georgia isn't helpless.  Russia's energy and transportation grid (think oil pipelines, electrical transmission, lines, rail lines, and such) is all much too large to have any prayer of defending.  Georgia could start using small teams to blow Russian infrastructure.  In fact, they may be able to drop Russian oil deliveries to Europe substantially within two weeks.  That would have Europe howling at Russia to get the out of Georgia.
There comes a time when even good men must run up the black flag of anarchy and slit throats. - H.L. Mencken