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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 09:46 AM Response to Reply #4 9. These guys came to that line drawn in the sand where they had to chose whether or not to become an amoral monster. To decide to kill other human beings not only because he could but because he had 'permission'. But in the end these bastards pulled those triggers. So they are every damn bit as guilty as the thugs that ordered them to Iraq.
northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 04:15 PM Response to Reply #1 3. the soldier who illegally invaded a foreign country? yup. your choice is as follows: if the invasion was illegal, then everyone who participated in said invasion is a war criminal. "I was just following orders" is not a legal defense to a war crimes charge. If her son stepped foot on Iraqi soil, he, too, was a war criminal. YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. he may have been a low level war criminal who is not worth prosecuting, but unless he was forced into Iraq at the point of a bayonet, he could have refused to enter (and gone to jail, certainly, but that's the price for civil disobedience) every argument concerning how the invasion was illegal was relevant at the time that Casey Sheehan entered into Iraq. He was 'just following orders' when he contributed to the deaths of 100,000 Iraqis. Think the dead and orphans care about that? see, here's the law morality thing again. I don't hold him morally responsible, but the law would, if applied as posted above, hold him legally responsible. tell me why I am wrong.
atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 03:34 PM Response to Original message 1. Being a Veteran,I would say yes Many people here only wish to hold the leadership responsible, and are willing to give the troops a free pass. I say we are all taught right from wrong, and going to basic training does not make a mindless robot out of anyone, unless it's what they want to become. If you follow without question, if you cannot or just refuse to see the hypocrisy of the term "fighting for our freedom" when the Patriot Act, the NSA spying, and a president being able to name anyone an enemy combatant has destroyed those "freedoms", then maybe your not a war criminal, maybe your just stupid!!!!! "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who do nothing...." Albert Einstein"Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligation of obedience...Thereforehave the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occuring.":The Nuremberg Tribunal 1945-1946
warrior1 (11,853 posts) Republicans hate the military, and the troops and it's on full display for the world to see.You thought that the way the deny $$$ to fund the VA is bad, now we see their contempt for a soldier is unbounded. I have always felt this and now we have proof. They should be ashamed of how they are treating this soldier, but I'll bet they will hang on this till the bitter end. Fine, but what it shows is that republicans can not be trusted with the safety of our military. This is just one example. In a way it seem like a test. A test to see if their contempt for our President is so deep that anything including bring home a POW is now considered wrong instead of doing the right thing in a very tough decision. They failed. Some democrats have also failed. Please, republicans run on this. They should be ashamed.
valerief (39,332 posts) 1. They love the military when it's killing for the 1%. Otherwise, they hate it. nt
lame54 (14,687 posts) 5. They're going to Michael Schiavo this poor guy...Michael was strong enough to weather the storm - I hope the same for Bowe
Taverner (55,476 posts)At what point does military worship become dangerous? There are varying degrees of military worship - the Third Reich practically turned the SS into gods among men in propaganda. Then you can go to countries like Costa Rica that do not even have an army. We are somewhere in between the two, but at times I fear the constant military tie ins on the news is taking us in this direction. I don't think military worship is a safe road for us to travel. To be completely honest, it is relatively new to Americans - it wasn't always so. IT seemed like it started during WWII but never ended when the war did. "Support the Troops" has become a litmus test for many, and any time an atrocity caused by them happens, many are stumbling over each other to point out this was "one bad apple" and certainly "there is no problem with the rest of the barrel so please stop looking over there." And it is a form of blind faith. I realize not every person in the military commits atrocities. But you take men and women, at their prime physical peak years, train them to kill in the most efficient way possible - what would you expect? That they wouldn't climb over that metaphorical bridge from "killing under orders and "killing?" Sadly, it seems every decade we become more militarized, more of a threat to the world and ourselves. Let's not kid ourselves - this is what killed the USSR. It wasn't Reagan, and it wasn't Nixon, but they killed themselves by over-militarizing and overreaching. To the military worshippers out there, let me suggest a reading. It was written by a veteran of several wars who rose to the rank of Major General. His name was Smedly Butler, and the book he wrote was "War is a Racket." I suggest you take a look.... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=war+is+a+racket+by+smedly+butler
Arctic Dave (13,812 posts) 41. +1Military worship is a sign of a sick society. It comes with a high mortality rate for those that come down with it.
Taverner (55,476 posts) 45. Gott Mitt UnsGerman for God is with us On every German Uniform during WWII
Bigmack (7,156 posts) 4. If you quote Butler... I have to quote my favorite Marine general... `I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these (Third World) nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the `haves' refuse to share with the `have-nots' by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don’t want and above all don’t want crammed down their throats by Americans.' – Gen. David Shoup, United States Marine Commandant...Medal of Honor recipient.... 2 Purple Hearts (I'm proud to say that Gen Shoup was my Commandant during the first part of my time in.)
NoOneMan (4,795 posts) 77. I never got that whole "served" thingI mean, they get paid right? Its a job. Free job training. More training for post-job job. Good retirement package. Good benefits compared to average job. Free housing for many members. Seems like you have a country serving the military people. Im not saying that this stuff isn't good or right, but damn man... They aren't "serving". They are working and being compensated fairly. For some people, its the best gig they have access to
blueamy66 (6,501 posts) 123. If you are in the Guard, you only put in one weekend a monthand 1 or 2 weeks a year, correct? So you can also hold down a FT job, with bennies, correct? And get paid for those weekends? Housing may not be free, but aren't active, enlisted military given a housing "stipend" in their paychecks? Of course only active duty military should have access to free medical care. Of course the military should have to pay taxes on their income. It's not a job you can quit. That's why one should think long and hard before enlisting.
Confusious (8,317 posts) 84. Like the other fellow said, you can die "on the job"Some, like my grandfather, served during WW2, my dad vietnam, my greatgrandfather WW1. They had choices, but they put country, family friends first and served. My greatgrandfather paid the price. My great grandmother never got over it. I never got to know him.
NoOneMan (4,795 posts) 86. You can die on any job Do roofers, line men and loggers "serve"?
SoCalDem (101,386 posts) Why military participants who die in war are called heroes I have always thought that it was because what parent/widow/widower/child could ever "accept" the "waste" of that precious (to them) life? As a society, it is beneficial to laud publicly the war dead of their own in the short term, and eventually to even (somewhat) "recognize" the dead of the vanquished. It "sanitizes" war, and allows for the ready embrace of the "next war". It makes possible (in the lizard-brain" we all have) waiting to be reactivated at a future time in the next war., the desire to avenge, to re-enact, ....to memorialize the ones who fought before us. Soldiers don't die in battle, on purpose. They are all trying to stay alive, so they can come home. They die because wars are all about the killing, and the overwhelming of the enemy. When the people who run the wars , who plan the wars, who have no "skin-in-the-game", make mistakes in planning, people die. Many times they are fighting "the last war" with today's soldiers. Sometimes they cannot accept the fact that they have a stalemate on their hands and just need to declare victory and stop the killing. Many wars are the physical manifestation of failed/short-sighted foreign policy, or politics on steroids. For ordinary soldiers to die as a result of "paper-pushers" who cannot find a reasonable way out of political fights, is a wasteful end-result. If the ones killed are seen as "heroic", and "given" some parades, remembrance celebrations, and posthumous recognitions are handed out, it somehow salves the consciences of the "decision-makers". I'm sure there are heroic actions in battle, because sometimes people DO heroic things to save a friend or even someone who is not yet a friend, but being a soldier is not inherently "heroic". Soldier A of the US, killing Soldier B of <insert country-name here> creates a "hero/martyr" for "the other side". A life lost in wartime has to be about more than the fact that the young family of that soldier needed a breadwinner with a better income than fry cook at IHOP could provide. The most awful thing for a loved one to accept, has to be the fact that their soldier died for no good reason...that their life was "wasted". If they are seen as heroic, it has to help if there is to be acceptance.
mopinko (41,213 posts) 1. if you are a believer in evolutionary psychology, as i am, you would positthat hero worship leads the tribe to rear the offspring of said heroes, and therefore continue the supply of those willing to die for the tribe. no hero worship, and the supply of heroes dries up pretty quickly.
99Forever (7,625 posts) 8. Gotta keep that cannon fodder coming.YAY death and destruction!
The only 'troops' DU and the left support are the traitors and deserters who hate this country.John ****ing Kerry comes to mind.
There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site
Just to be clear on the matter...these are the vermin that insist the military should and gladly would open fire on Americans on our soil to defend a leftist President that sought to install an official dictatorship.Die painfully and slow you ****ing mutts.
Just to be clear on the matter...these are the vermin that insist the military should and gladly would open fire on Americans on our soil...
