Churches RE-E-E-EALLY upset Proglodytes

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

For my fellow Cavers just returning from Sunday services:

Prophet 451 (9,194 posts)

Should Churches Be Taxed?
 
So I finally got Star membership and thought I'd celebrate by uploading my own avatar (same one use on everything) and creating my first poll in ages.

Simple question: Should churches be taxed?


160 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited

 Yes 109 (68%)

 No 22 (14%)

 Yes, but exempt their charitable actions (i.e. soup kitchens) 29 (18%)

 I like clicking things 0 (0%)

 1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.

QuebecYank (9 posts)

1. Hell, yes!

We've seen how the Mormons threw their weight around concerning Proposition 8 in California. There's been more mixing of politics and religion with the Right-wing parties, then in the past. I can envision seeing a candidate (religious leader), representing the Tea Party, running for President. I can also see the US, getting involved in a religious war. There seems to be a panicked, desperate shift by religious leaders, to imprint their beliefs onto the GOP and TP. Common sense, has evaporated. Threats of violence, racist and homophobic insults, and even redefining the text of the Constitution. All of this and more done to support their hatred, their intolerance, their need to basically create a Christian version of Shari'a law, among other things. It needs to be stopped. Unfortunately, the topic of religion seems to be a forbidden one, when it comes to the media.

QuebecYank (9 posts)

30. Tax 'Em All!!!

The Catholic Church owns lots of real estate, throughout the world. Not only that, they are also one of the top proprietors of hospitals in the USA. With them owning hospitals, they can enforce their beliefs (such as no abortions), onto their patients. Religion, is a business. Movies, are a business. Their product is films. With religion, their product is faith, a chance in the afterlife. No matter the business, all it's customers, must pay a price. We live in a society where we're afraid to discuss not just religion. But religion, as a business. The preachers of all the different faiths, are living the lives of Hollywood celebrities. Bentleys, mansions, jewelry, furs, etc. They've amassed fortunes by manipulated the poor, the handicapped, the lonely, etc. Preachers are nothing but snake oil salesmen peddling a spiritual fix-all that cures nothing. While draining the bank accounts of the elderly, and the downtrodden. Religion, like all businesses enlarge themselves on power (which = $$$), through corruption and greed. And in order to get more power, they hop into bed with politicians. Religious leaders want to dictate laws to the politicians, and get them to have schools used as places to indoctrinate children. Creating Christian Soldiers, who are willing to fight their fellow Americans. All the more reason to tax them.

Niko (79 posts)

9. Churches shouldn't even be legal
 
Selling an invisible product. On every other occasion, that's called fraud and people are prosecuted for it.

Niko (79 posts)

15. Want to know what's extremist?

Teaching children to believe in factual falsehoods to such a psychologically damaging extent that it continues into adulthood, only so those adults can continue the cycle by teaching their children the same, while people collect billions in revenue from those factual falsehoods and don't even have to pay taxes to boot.

I'd highly recommend The God Delusion if you're willing to help yourself by freeing yourself from the shackles.

Niko (79 posts)

34. Atheists can't proselytize
 
There's facts, and there's fiction. And religion is fiction, period.

The conversion of beliefs from fiction to fact is not proselytization, it's education.

It is a LIE that Earth is 6000 years old. It is a LIE that humans lived with the dinosaurs. It is a LIE that a virgin gave birth. It is a LIE that a man can be raised from the dead. It is a LIE that a man built a boat and put 2 of every animal on it. It is a LIE that humanity started from one man and one woman who didn't evolve from any common ancestor.

The claims of religion are scientifically falsifiable. They are not my "opinions". If you want to go on believing falsehoods, you have every right. I draw the line at people taking money by perpetuating those falsehoods, and indoctrinating children into those falsehoods.

Thankfully, some people grow out of it, but those are too few and far between, and it's arguably the most dangerous force on the planet right now in an age where humanity has the ability to destroy itself. If not through war, then through climate change, or the depletion of resources to the point of mass starvation, all because humanity can't get past it's infancy that is religion.

Niko (79 posts)

65. So you pretty much agree with me then
 
Just because you say I'm proselytizing doesn't make it so. Look up the definition of the word. Saying that human beings evolved from a common ancestor is not proselytizing, it's educating. The same goes for every single scientific refutation of every other religious claim. And you agree, so good.

As for the claim that there is no god - First, I never said that, and second, the facts point to an increasingly close to 100% probability that there is, as a matter of fact, no god. We're not talking 60% here, or 70% here, or 90%, or 99%, or 99.99%, more like 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%. The science is progressing to the point where it's the epitome of ridiculous absurdity to continue to claim your "belief" has any bearing in reality.

Finally, I'd like to you define "god". Since you agree with me that science can disprove pretty much any religious claim, and that it's a method of determining truth over falsehood, and that it's the only rational explanation of any phenomenon, are you to claim that the god you believe in is the deistic god instead of the Abrahamic god? I'm asking if you believe in the one that "started the universe" or "created the laws of physics" but then left things to go on their own without any intervention. Because if that's the case, then you're just as much of an atheist as almost everyone else.

Seriously, if you haven't read it, you should read it: The God Delusion. Richard Dawkins talks about "raising consciousness" early on in the book. One of the things he says is you need to come out of the closet, so to speak. We all agree that the claims of religion are nonsense, yet still cling on to the deistic god, which is pretty much an admission that we're just atheists pretending not to be atheists.

Oktober (601 posts)

59. Yes yes... We've all read it...

However there is no need to be a tool about it.

Others will do what they please and so shall we and the atheistic portion of society continues to grow.

Niko (79 posts)

29. Does the First Amendment cover outright fraud?
 
Look, people are free to believe what they want, say what they want, etc. What's sickening, though, is how this gets extended to outright lying to make a profit. Now, the exercise of religion in general IS in fact detrimental, as it encourages ignorance and leads to all the bullshit that has to be dealt with in America these days, but that's a whole other discussion, I guess.

branford (1,323 posts)

32. Faith is not legally fraud.

You can believe anything you wish and freely proselytize if you so choose.

Both criminal and civil fraud require a number of very specific elements to prove, and religion and churches as commonly understood would never be guilty or liable. That is why so many kooky and destructive cults exist and are able to legally recruit. It's all part of basic First Amendment jurisprudence just as with freedom of speech. In order to ensure adequate protection for the right, sometimes it's necessary to tolerate the unsavory.

As to whether religion is detrimental, I disagree. In any event, the debate is purely academic as far as the Constitution is concerned.

Niko (79 posts)

35. And I'm saying it should be

You just gave some great examples regarding the cults. And you ironically negate your own argument when in one breath you say the cults are destructive, but in the next breath say religion is NOT detrimental.

What do you think religions are? They're cults.

Droning Predator (36 posts)

31. Tased? Hell yeah!

And you can tax 'em too if you want.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025855594

[Carl]

Mole stew. 

[JohnnyReb]

DUmmie says:

Niko (79 posts)

9. Churches shouldn't even be legal
 
Selling an invisible product. On every other occasion, that's called fraud and people are prosecuted for it.

The DUmmie's shinks should all be in prison for selling an invisible product.

[Dori]

Cali started a big brouhaha going on about Islam and Christianity......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5852319

[miskie]

Cali started a big brouhaha going on about Islam and Christianity......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5852319

This is better than the original thread !

And DUmmies -- with your 'there is no historical record that Jesus existed' -- I could say the same about most of you - the odds are there is no historical record that at least one of your ancestors existed, therefore you cannot exist either.

Obviously the above statement is ridiculous,  but that is the point. verifiable record or not doesn't make the past existence of someone or something true or false. All it proves is that someone bothered to write something down.

[miskie]

Now for The OP --

Taxing religion :

Religion is a Constitutionally guaranteed right, correct ?

Wouldn't taxing a religion be the same as a 'Poll Tax' ? - All of you have been harping on 'poll tax' every time the notion of voter ID comes up, even if its freely provided by the state, so I would certainly think that removing funds from a religion negatively impacts its ability to be freely practiced, right ?

[GOBUCKS]

During the campaign season, moles pop out of the woodwork.

[notaDUmmie]

During the campaign season, moles pop out of the woodwork.

Yeah...I've gotta say though, it took everything I had not send my mole on a suicide run on election night.   

[miskie]

Yeah...I've gotta say though, it took everything I had not send my mole on a suicide run on election night.   

Indeed - especially a long-time one. Best to construct and deploy a burner beforehand.

BTW, DUmmies - you still have yet to TS/PPR me, good luck on that. Assuming I have a mole at all that is.....

[Donpeyote]

Far Left Middle Left & Left & the Current Administration have major issues with Israel (The tiny Jewish State ) also ...

[Ptarmigan]

Why do DUmmies think all Christians are right wingers? There are leftist Christians like Episcopal, Mainline Protestant, and Unitarian.

[Donpeyote]

Why do DUmmies think all Christians are right wingers? There are leftist Christians like Episcopal, Mainline Protestant, and Unitarian.

Centers for Spiritual Living ( Religious Science) Unitarian Universalist ,Reform Judaism ...

[Aristotelian]

QuebecYank (9 posts)

30. Tax 'Em All!!!

The Catholic Church owns lots of real estate, throughout the world. Not only that, they are also one of the top proprietors of hospitals in the USA.

So DUmmy, why do you think that is the case? Why would the Catholic Church be one of the top owners of hospitals in the U.S.A.? (Indeed around the whole world, not limited to the U.S.)

Could it possibly be because the Catholic Church see helping those in need as a central part of its mission?

Not just the Catholic Church either (though I openly admit bias in favour of Catholicism being one myself)...somehow I don't think that saecular humanist organisations do the same.

[Big Dog]

Prophet 451 (9,194 posts)

Should Churches Be Taxed?

Go with that idea, DUmbshit.

It would hit the non-denominationals and Black churches (read: Democrat enablers) much worse than  the Catholics or mainline Protestant denominations (who run about 50/50 Dem/Rep).

[Mr Mannn]

The Constitution prevents liberals from exercising control over a vast pool of free thought: the churches. Religious thought is protected by Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly.

This is why the church is a threat to liberals/socialists/tyrants. Democrats cannot stand any competition.
Thus the fear and loathing for people of faith.

Bottom line: Socialism is inherently evil. They will use any means legal or otherwise to achieve their ends.

[zeitgeist]

What about the Reverends AL an Jessie? Where dey gonna raise some campaign scratch??  Or maybe just tax white churches?  Yeah there's the ticket.  Just tax white churches. 

[miskie]

What about the Reverends AL an Jessie? Where dey gonna raise some campaign scratch??  Or maybe just tax white churches?  Yeah there's the ticket.  Just tax white churches.

If they could find a way to tax churches with which they disagree, they would.

[ExGeeEye]

Now for The OP --

Taxing religion :

Religion is a Constitutionally guaranteed right, correct ?

Wouldn't taxing a religion be the same as a 'Poll Tax' ? - All of you have been harping on 'poll tax' every time the notion of voter ID comes up, even if its freely provided by the state, so I would certainly think that removing funds from a religion negatively impacts its ability to be freely practiced, right ?

By that standard there should be no sales tax (or any other tax) on the sale of firearms, or any cost to obtaining any "permits" (or any "permits" needed, but that's a separate argument) for buying/owning/carrying them....

You know, I'm OK with that 

[miskie]

By that standard there should be no sales tax (or any other tax) on the sale of firearms, or any cost to obtaining any "permits" (or any "permits" needed, but that's a separate argument) for buying/owning/carrying them....

You know, I'm OK with that 

Pretty much, yeah. But yet the mythical right to free healthcare seems to be all they talk about - so -- Tax and regulate the crap out of the actual Rights they dislike, to fund the nonexistent rights they do. Bass Ackwards Democrats at their stupidest.   

[DumbAss Tanker]

Hey, DUmmies, does that apply to Black churches, too...?

[HawkHogan]

I hate when the Dummies pretend they have any basic understanding of the Constitution. 

[tanstaafl]

Pretty much, yeah. But yet the mythical right to free healthcare seems to be all they talk about - so -- Tax and regulate the crap out of the actual Rights they dislike, to fund the nonexistent rights they do. Bass Ackwards Democrats at their stupidest.   

I like that, Miskie. Is it OK if I modify it slightly? Bass Ackward DUmmies? And abbreviate it to B.A.D.?

[franksolich]

I hate when the Dummies pretend they have any basic understanding of the Constitution.

I weep when the primitives pretend they have any basic understanding of the Constitution.

Big big tears.

Usually from boredom.

[VivisMom]

This is better than the original thread !

And DUmmies -- with your 'there is no historical record that Jesus existed' -- I could say the same about most of you - the odds are there is no historical record that at least one of your ancestors existed, therefore you cannot exist either.

Obviously the above statement is ridiculous,  but that is the point. verifiable record or not doesn't make the past existence of someone or something true or false. All it proves is that someone bothered to write something down.

Boy, for all their talk about how smart they are, it seems not one of them took a class on Christology, metaphysics, or philosophy. The Christology class I took as an undergrad nixed that 'no historical record of Jesus' thing right in the bud.

[miskie]

I like that, Miskie. Is it OK if I modify it slightly? Bass Ackward DUmmies? And abbreviate it to B.A.D.?

Works for me - BTW, Anything I post is always free to take. Images, text, Photoshops.. Doesn't matter to me.