Want to avoid a Civil War? Bring the showdown with the Far Right

[dutch508]

Tom Rinaldo (22,174 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216207238

Want to avoid a Civil War? Bring the showdown with the Far Right to a head sooner rather than later.

I worry about what will happen inside this country if Donald Trump ever faces criminal charges, federal criminal charges even more so. I watched with increasing concern in recent years as far right militia types became ever more brazen in their public struttings and pronouncements. When Bundy and his followers seized federal property at gun point, and then were not dislodged immediately, I found that standoff to be alarming. As the far right continues to gain a stronger footing in Republican controlled legislatures around the nation I take the possibility of secessionist type threats seriously. I expect right wing sheriffs in rural areas to increasingly go wingnut, using their inflated sense of "legal authority" to deputize vigilante mobs opposing federal authority. All of this will explode on steroids, I fear, if and when Donald Trump goes on trial.

But the pressure that explosion will release has been building steadily for a decade at least. The NRA long ago became a front for militias, and militias long ago became a front for white supremacists who actively are seeking civil war. They are organizing at an accelerating rate. They are getting stronger with the passage of time, particularly when the passage of time shows there to be little to no direct overt effort being made to shut them down cold. They are encouraged by any lull before the storm, as that lull gives them to time and space they need to further radicalize more followers to their "cause."

I figure their timeline calls for "right wing revolution" timed with the results of the 2024 presidential elections. A presidential campaign, especially one with Trump at the head of the Republican ticket, creates the ultimate explosive conditions that they seek. Donald Trump facing criminal charges before then would force their hand to quicker action under less than their ideal circumstances. May it be so.

Charging Trump with bullshit crimes just before the election would guarantee a Civil War.

samsingh (16,298 posts)

1. Agreed. Prosecute the alleged criminals so they will not try to destroy AMerica again.

Star Member TheRealNorth (4,626 posts)

2. I hate to say that I agree

I would rather fight them now then wait for them to steal 2024.

Tom Rinaldo (22,174 posts)

5. I am not supporting armed conflict against the right. Far from it.

I support using legal constitutional means to hold the far right fully accountable for their efforts to undermine democracy. I simply anticipate that they will not back down peacefully when that occurs. I hope I am wrong about that, but if I am not then I believe legitimate civil society, and those tasked with maintaining justice law and order inside of our Republic, will be best positioned to prevail against those who would ferment violence and secession, if they are fully countered (through lawful means) sooner rather than later. I think that would greatly reduce potential violent incidents in our nation.

certainot (8,087 posts)

25. their strength is vastly overestimated and tied closely to Dem and progressive ignorance of

RW radio. we don't even poll for it.

they use those stations to coordinate and fire up that extremist base. a lot of the real wackos ended up at jan 6. the Q-anon thing is based on 10 months of rw radio attacks on the 'liberal deep state', amped up with social media for abuse victims and a younger crowd.

the easiest and most effective way to derail the fascist right is to go on offense vs rw radio, which is very vulnerable now with limbaugh rotting. AI makes it easy and cheap to monitor, expose, and discredit rw radio, and very easy to boycott and expose advertisers.

then there are 87+ universities that can be protested for supporting 260 stations that have been feeding this radicalism with lies for 30 years. when they start pulling sports broadcasts the ad industry will force the breakup of the monopoly.

there's a fair bit of evidence russia has been using rw radio here, and around the world. here since at least 2008, mostly through limbaugh. we need investigations into that to expose russian manipulation of rw radio, to discredit it and their leaders who have been parroting limbaugh and sons.

destroying rw radio will go a long way to turning this around.

Star Member CrispyQ (31,045 posts)

6. I totally agree.

We don't have the years that they took for Watergate. We have less than one year. Their base is fired up & ready to vote. And ours? Not so much, IMO. And now we have a slew of voter suppression laws against us, too.

Star Member Kaleva (29,209 posts)

7. I think the vast majority here will stand on the sidelines if a civil war breaks out.

I get the sense that most folks don't have it in them to put a bullet in the head of Magahat or be an accessory to such an action. I don't.

The 3%-ers get their name from the fact only 3% of the population of the colonies stood up and fought the British...

WestIndianArchie (363 posts)

9. Speak for yourself.

lol.

The solution to the problems these assholes are causing is pretty simple. Round them up and imprison them for life. The government already knows who these degenerates are.

Star Member Kaleva (29,209 posts)

43. And you intend to do that how?

Or are you going to stand on the sidelines while others do so?

David__77 (20,818 posts)

26. Someone doesn't have to use force to fight.

People in the street - many of them - can be important. They can serve to protect others and raise the stakes.

YP_Yooper (55 posts)

28. Interesting comment

it's been a while, but wasn't it something like 85% of the country didn't do much of anything during the revolutionary war? I mean, aside from getting picnick baskets, climbing to the rooftops to watch the battles?

97%

Star Member Kaleva (29,209 posts)

42. The percentage of people involved in combat in a CW is small.

Most do what they must to survive.

About 10% of Northerners served during the American Civil War and many of those who did serve were drafted.

3Hotdogs (7,029 posts)

10. Violent ciivil war.... What shape would it take.

First traitors would be the sheriffs and police that will not enforce mask and vaccine laws. First victims will be red state election officials and maybe legislators.

From there, I don't know. A couple of thousand cars driving along Rt 80 from Wyoming to N.J. would be easily stopped. Just stop the delivery of fuel to the local gas stations.

What do you think a civil war will look like. I believe it is going to happen.

YP_Yooper (55 posts)

29. See you have the most important question

It's not anything like the Civil War v1. What we have today is like coastal v interior. Rural v Urban.

There are no clear lines like there was back then.

California is as blue as blue overall, but there are millions of red repubs living there. Same with Washington and Oregon. Urban doesn't have a chance without food from rural. Rural doesn't have a chance without power and tech, and well, everything needed today.

So, what I'm saying is maybe less like what we think as our US Civil War, and more like the Bosnian War where everyone not in your little group from one neighborhood to another is an enemy?

Nasruddin (576 posts)

34. Rural reality

People in rural areas, in general, don't grow their own food either.

Even in CA's Central Valley, which grows everything, areas are specialized and so are the farms.

Star Member RFCalifornia (333 posts)

11. One of the biggest mistakes in US history was not hanging the Confederate Generals

We appear to be making that mistake again

 

That would have made the South fight to the last man. Undoable, as the peace party in the North was gaining traction by 1865...

Star Member Dan (2,902 posts)

31. I agree with that. But I would recommended hanging Colonels and above.

 

traitorsgalore (503 posts)

12. LOL, arresting Trumptraitor would help but the excuses for not doing it abound

You said you fear what would happen if justice prevailed and that right there is the problem.

David__77 (20,818 posts)

13. A Trump trial, drawn out, would probably be favorable.

Even if the legal outcome is not desirable. By drawn out, I mean years.

 

Star Member Martin Eden (11,066 posts)

17. We have to pass a voting rights act

To overrule voter suppression laws and state attempts to overturn results by submitting Electors for the loser.

THAT is how they plan to steal the 2024 presidential election; not through violent insurrection, but by corrupting the process.

Once Trump or some other fascist Rethug like DeSantis takes power, our democracy is on its deathbed.

RW militias will continue to be a domestic terrorist threat no matter what. I don't doubt violence would follow conviction and incarceration of Trump, but I don't foresee secession or an actual civil war.

The actual coup will be from within through ostensibly legal means.

BusterMove (11,873 posts)

22. I always wonder just whom they are going to be fighting?

Do we see them taking on the US military?

🍿

Or - Can you have a civil war if only one side shows up?

Star Member TheRealNorth (4,626 posts)

24. Well, they can probably count on a good portion of the military joining them.

YP_Yooper (55 posts)

32. Not a chance in hell

1) The US military, by all recent reporting, is split politically.
2) How many military personnel will fire upon their own countrymen?

And lastly, what any military historian would recognize as an example:

Afghanistan, by any measure a 3rd world, undeveloped country, has thrown off the Mongol hordes, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the greatest military the earth has seen with the US. Rumor has it Japan’s Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as saying: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." To the military, it's a mission. To the people, it's their home.

Anyone thinking the US military is going to offensively control the ground with so many weapons from people defending their home is a fool.

I say this for both sides, not offering some glamorous image of the right.

The military is as split as it was in 1861. Remember, Robert E Lee was offered command of all the Union forces by Abraham Lincoln. He chose to stay with his State. I see the same happening in todays military should it come to it.

BusterMove (11,873 posts)

39. Right. So again - just who will be fighting whom in this civil war?

YP_Yooper (55 posts)

44. Guess we all look over our shoulder

unless you can find the easy pickings - like the MAGA hats or Trump 2024 signs in their windows and yards

Apologies for being flippant, but it's hard to see why someone would shoot another for what? mask policy? Will a Trumper aim a gun at you for getting a vacc? I mean, in a country of 320 million, you can always find exceptions, but locally, I'm not sure there will be a general Bosnia-type civil war or gun-slinging stand-off.

Politicians throwing shoes at one another like in South Korea, yeah, surprised it didn't happen already, but a shooting war is hard to see.

Star Member Mr.Bill (14,960 posts)

27. Good OP, but I disagree a little on a few points.

The NRA is not a political organization so much as they are a financial organization. Tell them you are a Democrat and send them money. See if they send it back. They would take money from Planned Parenthood if they offered it. They are lobbyists for gun manufacturers, and likely a conduit for dark money paid to politicians.

As far as what Trump can do as a candidate nearing election vs what he can do now, I think he would have a better chance winning in 2024 if he was sitting in prison than if he were free. It would energize his small base to the point of violence. So I don't know what we should do as far as the timing of going after him. That's in Garland's hands.

But excellent OP and you raise a lot of good points.

Star Member Dan (2,902 posts)

35. If Trump goes to prison, he will die there.

Star Member Mr.Bill (14,960 posts)

38. I would hope so.

But it will be interesting to see what happens if a convict gets elected president. It has, of course, never happened before.

Star Member Dan (2,902 posts)

40. If imprisoned, he has problems...

#1. Is he still entitled to Secret Service protection?

If not, then it would be just a matter of time until his big mouth overloads his ass.

Someone will want to become famous for offfing him.

He has pissed off a log of people that are not his base, it would be just a matter of time until someone slices and dices him.

And, finally, he hasn’t paid the Russians back - between that and our own government figuring that he is less trouble dead, why not.

 

Star Member Silent3 (11,793 posts)

45. That's exactly why the announcement from DoJ, while good news, doesn't at all...

...allay my anger that more hasn't been done sooner. Time is precious here, and no matter what the DoJ does next, they have already frittered away too much time without going directly after the instigators of the insurrection.

We can only hope we haven't already missed the opportunities we need.

Tom Rinaldo (22,174 posts)

53. To clarify a bit, I don't foresee a day soon when most of the nation will be engaged in armed fights

But I think violent flashpoints will increasingly happen, the question is to what extent will they be fermented, aided, and abetted by elected officials intentionally striking defiant stances to rile up their core supporters? That can lead to an unraveling of our constitutional republic if some elected leaders openly refuse to accept laws that they disagree with. Think of George Wallace blocking the school house doors on a mega level. Think of units of a State's National Guard refusing to enforce federal laws and mandates, with the backing of that State's quasi rebellious Governor. If constitutional order isn't reestablished soon, I think that is where we are heading, and what would happen after that, in that kind of seething void, is anyone's guess.

 

[jukin]

I agree!  I ain't getting any younger and the country is going down the communist hellhole faster so I'm all for doing this now.

[FlaGator]

samsingh (16,298 posts)

1. Agreed. Prosecute the alleged criminals so they will not try to destroy AMerica again.

How delusional. Under Trump, the country was better socially, economically, and militarily. The only ones unhappy and stirring up trouble were those who couldn't accept that Trump had won the election. And, in spite of, all their attempts to create racial and economic divides in our country and launched false investigation after investigation to distract him, Trump still managed to make the U. S. prosper.

They don't even realize that everything they are doing now is only going to make Trump's eventual victory even bigger.

[SVPete]

   So, avoid a "civil war" by doing a preemptive civil war?  


 

[USA4ME]

Peace and unity in the USA begins with the political left admitting that they’re wrong.

Lefties, no human being wants to live under tyranny, and that’s exactly what your ideology and worldview offers. The “civil war” will be people refusing to be subject to your tyranny. It’s a war you can’t win.

.

[franksolich]

samsingh (16,298 posts)

1. Agreed. Prosecute the alleged criminals so they will not try to destroy AMerica again.

Wow.  It's good to see my old friend non-Hindu Sam still hanging around.

[Zathras]

DUmbasses just can't keep their inner fascism from coming out can they. Every despot in history, past, present and future would be proud of them.

Also, if the "Civil War" they crave so much went hot, the DUmbasses would crap their pretty pink panties in unison.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

So, in order to preserve the rule of law, they want to arrest Trump on any charges regardless of how tenuous to stage a show trial going into an election and they want to deploy the American military against any Americans that may be offended by such things.

Do I have that right?

[DefiantSix]

DUmbasses just can't keep their inner fascism from coming out can they. Every despot in history, past, present and future would be proud of them...

...Just days before those same dick tasters would truck them out to the mass graves for the worthless eaters they are.

There's only ONE opening for Commune Poet, DUmbshits...

[CollectivismMustDie]

Hey, collectivists:

Say when.

[67 Rover]

This thread is a perfect example of why I am against making marijuana legal and easily accessible. 

The level of paranoia and delusion is off the charts with these DUmmies who self "medicate" . Marijuana and mental health issues are not compatible.

[DLR Pyro]

Star Member RFCalifornia (333 posts)

11. One of the biggest mistakes in US history was not hanging the Confederate Generals

We appear to be making that mistake again

Quote
Star Member Dan (2,902 posts)

31. I agree with that. But I would recommended hanging Colonels and above.

I thought y'all was against capital punishment unless it was to an unborn child, but now I see you have extended your exceptions to those who don't think like you do in regards to politics.

[I_B_Perky]

Tom Rinaldo (22,174 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216207238

Want to avoid a Civil War? Bring the showdown with the Far Right to a head sooner rather than later.

<blah blah blah>

Fact of the matter is dummie, you see your demise and are helpless to stop it.  Can't remember if it is denial or anger that is the first step to loss, but whichever it is you got it dummie!  Hell might be both. 

For some reason this pleases me.   

[DefiantSix]

I thought y'all was against capital punishment unless it was to an unborn child, but now I see you have extended your exceptions to those who don't think like you do in regards to politics.

Both are sub-sets of the same old leftist classification:

Leben unwürdig des Lebens

[Mr Mannn]

certainot (8,087 posts)

destroying rw radio will go a long way to turning this around.

Darn those pesky Free Speech and Free Press amendments. They keep getting in the way. How can we censor and criminalize all opposition with a healthy First Amendment?

[DLR Pyro]

Darn those pesky Free Speech and Free Press amendments. They keep getting in the way. How can we censor and criminalize all opposition with a healthy First Amendment?

Free speech exists for the left when they want to display a crucifix in a jar of urine as "art" or fly the rainbow flag from a government building or to justify why they burn the American Flag. 

When the "other side" tries to exercise their freedoms of speech, the left seeks to criminalize it