Author Topic: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?  (Read 11219 times)

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Offline bijou

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Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« on: October 26, 2008, 11:05:52 AM »

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On Tuesday evening I attended the debate between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox at Oxford’s Natural History Museum. This was the second public encounter between the two men, but it turned out to be very different from the first. Lennox is the Oxford mathematics professor whose book, God’s Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? is to my mind an excoriating demolition of Dawkins’s overreach from biology into religion as expressed in his book The God Delusion -- all the more devastating because Lennox attacks him on the basis of science itself. In the first debate, which can be seen on video on this website, Dawkins was badly caught off-balance by Lennox’s argument precisely because, possibly for the first time, he was being challenged on his own chosen scientific ground.

This week’s debate, however, was different because from the off Dawkins moved it onto safer territory– and at the very beginning made a most startling admission. He said:

A serious case could be made for a deistic God.

This was surely remarkable. Here was the arch-apostle of atheism, whose whole case is based on the assertion that believing in a creator of the universe is no different from believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, saying that a serious case can be made for the idea that the universe was brought into being by some kind of purposeful force. A creator. True, he was not saying he was now a deist; on the contrary, he still didn't believe in such a purposeful founding intelligence, and he was certainly still saying that belief in the personal God of the Bible was just like believing in fairies. Nevertheless, to acknowledge that ‘a serious case could be made for a deistic god’ is to undermine his previous categorical assertion that

...all life, all intelligence, all creativity and all ‘design’ anywhere in the universe is the direct or indirect product of Darwinian natural selection...Design cannot precede evolution and therefore cannot underlie the universe.

...
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2008, 01:05:51 AM »
There has never been a conflict between a creator (of any kind) and TToE.

Dawkins' statement (and I haven't seen it en toto) neither adds nor subtracts from the science supporting Evolution.

Abiogenesis, perhaps.  But there has never been a scientific a priori link between abiogenesis and TToE anyway.
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Offline bijou

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 02:35:13 AM »
There has never been a conflict between a creator (of any kind) and TToE.

Dawkins' statement (and I haven't seen it en toto) neither adds nor subtracts from the science supporting Evolution.

Abiogenesis, perhaps.  But there has never been a scientific a priori link between abiogenesis and TToE anyway.

This wasn't about creation/evolution in particular the point of the article was more basic than that ie has Dawkins moved from a position of dismissing the existence of God out of hand and despising all believers in God, to accepting that there is a case to be made for the existence of God (a position he has never previously held).



Offline Toastedturningtidelegs

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 08:12:00 AM »
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I don't know about that but I loved him on Family Feud! :-)
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 11:11:20 AM »
There has never been a conflict between a creator (of any kind) and TToE.
...
Not if you discount the Bible as "just a guideline".   :whatever:
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Offline rubliw

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008, 05:29:12 PM »
A case can be made for deism that is about as strong as other theories about what caused the big bang.... a singularity, cyclical universe theories, or multi-verse theories, etc.   I don't know if 'strong' is the right word to describe any of them.... they are all entirely speculative.  They aren't really strong except in the fact that they cannot be summarily dismissed as impossible (yet).

Offline rubliw

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2008, 02:19:38 AM »
I did a little background check on this quote of Dawkins where he says 'design cannot precede evolution'...  I immediately disagreed with the quote as I read it, and it sounded a little fishy to me that Dawkins would actually say that sort of thing.  Turns out, the Dawkins quote in question was a response to a questionnaire posed to many scientists and other renown thinkers asking them this:

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Great minds can sometimes guess the truth before they have either the evidence or arguments for it (Diderot called it having the "esprit de divination"). What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?

http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_print.html

So that quote of his wasn't an actual factual assertion about the universe.. rather he is articulating personal beliefs or hunches of his own that he knows at this particular point in time are not provable through empirical, scientific means, but still suspects are true.  With that taken into account, it becomes apparent that he didn't actually flip flop or say anything inconsistent at all in his debate.   Of course that didn't stop hordes of theist blogs from jumping on the quote anyways and misrepresenting it completely (like the article in the OP).  Had to wade through a few pages of those before I found the original context of the quote.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 02:22:54 AM by rubliw »

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2009, 08:02:29 AM »
I did a little background check on this quote of Dawkins where he says 'design cannot precede evolution'...  I immediately disagreed with the quote as I read it, and it sounded a little fishy to me that Dawkins would actually say that sort of thing.  Turns out, the Dawkins quote in question was a response to a questionnaire posed to many scientists and other renown thinkers asking them this:

So that quote of his wasn't an actual factual assertion about the universe.. rather he is articulating personal beliefs or hunches of his own that he knows at this particular point in time are not provable through empirical, scientific means, but still suspects are true.  With that taken into account, it becomes apparent that he didn't actually flip flop or say anything inconsistent at all in his debate.   Of course that didn't stop hordes of theist blogs from jumping on the quote anyways and misrepresenting it completely (like the article in the OP).  Had to wade through a few pages of those before I found the original context of the quote.
So which is it? Can design precede evolution?

If it can than I see no difference between ID and designed evolution; although I'd take great umbrage with any god that set his creatures at war with their universe and made starvation and predation the mechanism of evolution in some dice-rolling sport called life. If so we owe Hitler a tremendous apology (except for his failure to adequately adapt).

Undesigned evolution means no creature, not even man, evolves to a "higher" state because higher state does not exist as a valid term. There is no outside standard to measure higher to lower only our own subjective statements about ourselves. Man could just as easily evolve into a gibbering mindless baboons (not to be confused with Obama supporters) as the supposed next higher plane of existence.

Evolutionarily speaking neither Dawkins--nor you--suit MY needs for survival one iota and I'd just as soon see you serve as my slaves...or my dinner...than listening to your useless navel-gazing just because you'd rather be a god than worship one.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rubliw

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2009, 03:37:58 PM »
So which is it? Can design precede evolution?

Its a question up for debate... the correct answer isnt known.

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If it can than I see no difference between ID and designed evolution; although I'd take great umbrage with any god that set his creatures at war with their universe and made starvation and predation the mechanism of evolution in some dice-rolling sport called life. If so we owe Hitler a tremendous apology (except for his failure to adequately adapt).

The theory of ID makes some specific claims about design in biology... that species appear fully formed in nature, that it is demonstrably impossible or extremely unlikely that certain traits could have evolved by unguided forces.... its very different from evolutionary creationism (ie, God started or even guided the process but it appears natural and gradual)... which is basically just evolution.

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Undesigned evolution means no creature, not even man, evolves to a "higher" state because higher state does not exist as a valid term. There is no outside standard to measure higher to lower only our own subjective statements about ourselves. Man could just as easily evolve into a gibbering mindless baboons (not to be confused with Obama supporters) as the supposed next higher plane of existence.

We could evolve that way... I think most of us would hope not.. but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

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Evolutionarily speaking neither Dawkins--nor you--suit MY needs for survival one iota and I'd just as soon see you serve as my slaves...or my dinner...than listening to your useless navel-gazing just because you'd rather be a god than worship one.

Yes, but you do need communities and social structure... at least it aids your survival very much, I would assume.  If you can make a slave out of me, someone else with a bigger stick can make a slave out of you..  you may not need me specifically, but you need the rules that allow the both of us to be fruitful and multiply... which automatically preclude you from doing the things you mention. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 03:45:27 PM by rubliw »

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 07:58:48 AM »
Its a question up for debate... the correct answer isnt known.

The theory of ID makes some specific claims about design in biology... that species appear fully formed in nature, that it is demonstrably impossible or extremely unlikely that certain traits could have evolved by unguided forces.... its very different from evolutionary creationism (ie, God started or even guided the process but it appears natural and gradual)... which is basically just evolution.
ID theory does not prohbit the function of natural selection, it acknowledges it; they do however take umbrage with the idea of trans-speciation.

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We could evolve that way... I think most of us would hope not.. but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Evoloutionists speaking of Hope.

Now that is LOL-worthy

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Yes, but you do need communities and social structure... at least it aids your survival very much, I would assume.  If you can make a slave out of me, someone else with a bigger stick can make a slave out of you..  you may not need me specifically, but you need the rules that allow the both of us to be fruitful and multiply... which automatically preclude you from doing the things you mention. 
You don't "need" survival because your existence was never planned and has no purpose. You're little more than a biochemical accident that will be forgotten the instant your metabolic processes cease.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rubliw

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 10:12:30 AM »
ID theory does not prohbit the function of natural selection, it acknowledges it; they do however take umbrage with the idea of trans-speciation.

Neither does young earth creationism deny forms of natural selection.   But if you are speaking of evolutionary creationism... all that is an acceptance of evolutionary theory coexisting with belief in God... the evolution of the Catholics.... just like chemistry or physics, they tend to agree with the science... and might say that just because something appears random or arbitrary by all our own conceptions, does not mean that it was.

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Evoloutionists speaking of Hope.

Now that is LOL-worthy

Why?

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You don't "need" survival because your existence was never planned and has no purpose.

I strongly desire it... you simply cannot deny that we are NOT blank slates when we are born.. while much can be changed or altered with training or responding to our environments... we all are generally oriented towards certain things by default.  Natural selection generally has guaranteed that the orientations most beneficial for survival are what we are endowed with.

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You're little more than a biochemical accident that will be forgotten the instant your metabolic processes cease.

Quite a marvellous "accident" don't you think? I am thankful I have a short period of time to glance at the universe with a smidgeon of comprehension.  Accident or no accident, I think its pretty amazing.  So what if we are "accidental"?  Still desperately clinging to the idea that we are the centre of the universe, are we?  Im sorry that revelations to the contrary so offend your own sense of self-importance and hubris.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 10:25:23 AM by rubliw »

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2009, 06:59:51 PM »
You keep assinging judgmental language to a moral vacuum. Make up you mind which side of the fence you want to play on.

Hope is LOL-worthy because it does not exist. To what power beyond yourself do you make this appeal? Shall you appeal to your neighbor that your descendents won't turn into a gibbering baboon? The government? Can you guide your own evolution? Where is the source of this hope? Do you think man "ought not" turn into a gibbering baboon X number of generations from now?

You cannot say you "desire" survival. You don't desire anything. Its a biochemical predilection towards reproduction, itself a mere fact, not a matter of need or right. If your ancestors lacked such a "desire" you would not be here to comment one way or the other; and to be certain there were those that didn't and they have no decendents but simply being here is an on-going cascade of molecular happenstance.

Niether is natural selection "generally beneficial". It isn't anything. It's merely a fact, incapable of being good or bad. You might as well start assigning judgments about the falling of dominoes. You cannot say, "Well humans have generally progressed" as if humans OUGHT to progress. dinosaurs may as well have been the ones to progress. Could humans have progressed without dinosaurs becoming extinct? Ought dinosaurs have died so that humans could live? By whose rule? Why?

Nor can you call it a "marvelous" accident. Marvelous to what? What standard to you set-up to asses that which we should marvel, that which we should dub mundane and that which is contemptible? No such standard of man exists outside of man making it a self-justfying measure...and you strike me as the sort who spends a great deal of time congratulating himself on his marvellousness.

Hope-Marvelous-Need-Want-Desire-Beneficial-Thankful...all these things do not exist in a materialist world.

What other myths do you fabricate: Justice and Mercy?

I defy you to show me the empirical observation, formula or testing of these terms of yours.

And sorry to disappoint you but I do not see life in this world as important. It is the byproduct of chemical vomitus bereft of meaning or purpose populated by creatures more terrified of a universe they can neither comprehend nor conquer left to die countless lonely, pain-ridden and miserable deaths before blinking away into unremembering oblivion. I have conveyed as much since my first posting in this thread. Yet you find the need to assign motives to me to bolster your own internally inconsistent mewlings. How you can claim to be a materialist beggars the imagination. If life--yours included--actually meant anything you would be an embarrassment.

Have a "good" night.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rubliw

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 12:30:27 AM »
You keep assinging judgmental language to a moral vacuum. Make up you mind which side of the fence you want to play on.

Because I make judgements.... what moral vacuum?

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Hope is LOL-worthy because it does not exist. To what power beyond yourself do you make this appeal? Shall you appeal to your neighbor that your descendents won't turn into a gibbering baboon? The government? Can you guide your own evolution? Where is the source of this hope? Do you think man "ought not" turn into a gibbering baboon X number of generations from now?

So Hope (tm), and evolution cannot co-exist?  You seem to be working off your own definition of hope, exclusive to the inside of your head. Where is it written that to have "hope", one needs to appeal to some being external to himself?  Hope is simply a desire coupled with optimism that it will be fullfilled in the future.

Not to mention this hope business just started with me saying "We can hope that doesnt happen, but it doesnt mean it wont"... pretty benign... and now we're off in nihilistic lala land.   :thatsright:

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You cannot say you "desire" survival. You don't desire anything. Its a biochemical predilection towards reproduction, itself a mere fact, not a matter of need or right. If your ancestors lacked such a "desire" you would not be here to comment one way or the other; and to be certain there were those that didn't and they have no decendents but simply being here is an on-going cascade of molecular happenstance.

Niether is natural selection "generally beneficial". It isn't anything. It's merely a fact, incapable of being good or bad. You might as well start assigning judgments about the falling of dominoes. You cannot say, "Well humans have generally progressed" as if humans OUGHT to progress. dinosaurs may as well have been the ones to progress. Could humans have progressed without dinosaurs becoming extinct? Ought dinosaurs have died so that humans could live? By whose rule? Why?

Nor can you call it a "marvelous" accident. Marvelous to what? What standard to you set-up to asses that which we should marvel, that which we should dub mundane and that which is contemptible? No such standard of man exists outside of man making it a self-justfying measure...and you strike me as the sort who spends a great deal of time congratulating himself on his marvellousness.

Hope-Marvelous-Need-Want-Desire-Beneficial-Thankful...all these things do not exist in a materialist world.

Because one is a materialist, they give up the right to use adjectives?  Says who?  Neuroscientists might have something to say about this sort of thing.  These are descriptions of certain states of our brain and body.

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What other myths do you fabricate: Justice and Mercy?

I defy you to show me the empirical observation, formula or testing of these terms of yours.

And sorry to disappoint you but I do not see life in this world as important. It is the byproduct of chemical vomitus bereft of meaning or purpose populated by creatures more terrified of a universe they can neither comprehend nor conquer left to die countless lonely, pain-ridden and miserable deaths before blinking away into unremembering oblivion.

Good for you  :mental: 

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I have conveyed as much since my first posting in this thread. Yet you find the need to assign motives to me to bolster your own internally inconsistent mewlings.

You havent conveyed as much, youve been fairly all over the place and incoherent.  Still kind of wondering how we got here from 'does design precede evolution?'.

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How you can claim to be a materialist beggars the imagination. If life--yours included--actually meant anything you would be an embarrassment.

What exactly do you think materialism has to do with all this nihilistic silliness?  I havent said anything incompatible with materialism.   

Whether there is anything that 'has meaning' in a giant big gigantic universal sense is really irrelevant.  In some sense, there are things that just are.  Again.. we are not blank slates.  The vast majority of us could not make ourselves not desire food, or sex, or companionship, etc etc if we tried.    Things like "good", "bad", "higher", "lower", "positive", "negative" are descriptions of things relative to our inborn qualities and desires... which are very material and objective things.

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Have a "good" night.

I think I'll have a "GREAT" night!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 12:36:30 AM by rubliw »

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 07:15:55 AM »
So you speak in subjectivist terms as if they were objective facts and don't even have the awareness to know the difference.

You say man is "marvellous" based on your own "states of...brain and body" states that are very fleeting. Miss breakfast and find yourself troubled by your supervisor too much and you may find your brain and body in such states where marvellous is inconjurable. Man is no more marvellous than the current state of your digestion. I find this passage particularly telling:

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You seem to be working off your own definition of hope, exclusive to the inside of your head. Where is it written that to have "hope", one needs to appeal to some being external to himself?  Hope is simply a desire coupled with optimism that it will be fullfilled in the future.

Very well then you have this internalized sense of optimism. You don't know if the thing hoped for exists, you have no power to bring it about yourself, there is no external place to appeal and you have no way of seeing if the thing hoped for shall ever become real (you will be long obliviated before man's evolutionary fate is decided).

Remind me again why you hold Christians in derision for their believing in Mr. Sky-Friend? Do you still wait by the fireplace for Santa?

You also seem very down on the concept of nihilism. You make dismissive gestures but no arguments. Why, if there be no God, is nihilism not the default outlook?

I bring these things up because your argument is riddled with inconsistencies and subjective declarations and dialogue is impossible when 2 different languages are used. Using subjective emotionalist terms to discuss objective materialist fact is impossible. You cannot call something good or beneficial unless it has meaning outside your own subjective self. What is good and beneficial to an atheist hedonist would be deplorable to the average christian because the christian prizes eternal moral communion with his creator for more than he prizes fleeting physical pleasures in a decaying body. You cannot say something is evolutionarily beneficial without first claiming the life has value. To whom does that life have value: itself? A worthless proposition. A thing made by accident, scratching about from one moment to the next in a futile effort to dodge the death that will inevitably claim it cannot have value. Everything is fated to ruin, even the stars. Someday the last man will bury himself deep to avoid his fate but his dead hand will unfurl and the last poem will blow into ash as the last dying star convulses and fades.

Marvelous? Good? Beneficial?....HOPE?

More like: contempt, pity, mild bemusement

But since you mewl to return to the dialogue: can evolution be kick-started by the hand of the Divine?

The admission of this statement is: God wanted man to exist.

The second question is: Did God intend man to reach his current form or was man's final form a free-flowing event?

If the latter: God created a world where conscious beings may never have occurred. In which case we might have never become men wherein God says "it is good" but instead we just as easily (more probably) have remained amoeba or even loose strands of protein and God would have called it "good enough" and still rested on the 7th day.

But seeing as molecules, atoms, waves and quanta only work in certain manners--round pegs being ill-suited for square holes--it seems God did not simply scatter his Tinker-Toys allowing them to assume whatever form they fell into.

If the former we ask: did God allow events to unfold or did he nudge them from time to time to a pre-determined end?

Again, taking the latter first: This is in effect claiming a day of creation might as well be reckoned a billion years each. I fnd it to be the weakest argument among christians embarrassed by their own creation stories colliding with materialist fact but it bodes worst for would-be materialists too embarrassed to admit they want to be christians.

It certainly fills the bill for your timid cravings of Purpose, Hope and Beneficence but it so thoroughly mishandles the cration story of Genesis as to devolve (heh) from an discussion of science into a dialogue on hermeneutics. It ceases to be a matter of "what does science say" as it is more a matter of "are we reading this right?" and I have no desire for THAT conversation.

As to the former: it says man was meant to be but he was meant to scratch, claw and kill his way into his current form amid a world of bitter cold, wasting plagues and languishing starvation and on up into...what exactly we don't know. If that be the case it was no God that brought us here but a raving devil.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline rubliw

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2009, 01:48:34 PM »
So you speak in subjectivist terms as if they were objective facts and don't even have the awareness to know the difference.

Apparently you seem to be engaged in a conversation that I am simply not engaging in.  Nowhere have I claimed any subjective ideas are objective fact.  Although I do admit, I first responded as if you were a theist... as it seemed like you were a theist doing a bad imitation of a stereotypical atheist caricature.  My mistake.

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You say man is "marvellous" based on your own "states of...brain and body" states that are very fleeting. Miss breakfast and find yourself troubled by your supervisor too much and you may find your brain and body in such states where marvellous is inconjurable. Man is no more marvellous than the current state of your digestion. I find this passage particularly telling:

Very well then you have this internalized sense of optimism. You don't know if the thing hoped for exists, you have no power to bring it about yourself, there is no external place to appeal and you have no way of seeing if the thing hoped for shall ever become real (you will be long obliviated before man's evolutionary fate is decided).

So what?  None of this calls into question the ability of someone who accepts evolution or atheism to desire, and have optimism for, certain outcomes in the future.  Still not seeing the "LOL-worthiness"....

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Remind me again why you hold Christians in derision for their believing in Mr. Sky-Friend? Do you still wait by the fireplace for Santa?

Mostly because of the certainty with which they ascribe to their beliefs.  Treated with the appropriate levels of skepticism, all religious tales would be regarded at about the same level of truth as Little Red Riding Hood.

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You also seem very down on the concept of nihilism. You make dismissive gestures but no arguments. Why, if there be no God, is nihilism not the default outlook?

God (should one exist) is as completely arbitrary and purposeless as us, or the universe.  If you have already accepted the proposition that a conscious being (called God) can somehow endow things with objective purpose or meaning, then you loose all claims to say that we can not provide it ourselves, as conscious beings.  There's nothing special about the god concept that renders it more capable of this than ourselves.

Allegedly, God anchors purpose and objectivity by providing something unchanging and external to which we can all appeal.  But the universe itself and our nature, does that just fine..  sure the universe changes, eventually... but its stable enough for our 'purposes'... and  that's good enough.

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I bring these things up because your argument is riddled with inconsistencies and subjective declarations and dialogue is impossible when 2 different languages are used. Using subjective emotionalist terms to discuss objective materialist fact is impossible. You cannot call something good or beneficial unless it has meaning outside your own subjective self. What is good and beneficial to an atheist hedonist would be deplorable to the average christian because the christian prizes eternal moral communion with his creator for more than he prizes fleeting physical pleasures in a decaying body. You cannot say something is evolutionarily beneficial without first claiming the life has value. To whom does that life have value: itself? A worthless proposition. A thing made by accident, scratching about from one moment to the next in a futile effort to dodge the death that will inevitably claim it cannot have value. Everything is fated to ruin, even the stars. Someday the last man will bury himself deep to avoid his fate but his dead hand will unfurl and the last poem will blow into ash as the last dying star convulses and fades.

Marvelous? Good? Beneficial?....HOPE?

Both hedonist and religionist practices, and the consequences of those practices, can be examined objectively... and we can, in theory, objectively determine the "better" way to live between the two.  "Better" being anchored to the very real human condition.. which tends to desire survival (preferably pleasantly). 

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More like: contempt, pity, mild bemusement

Oh noes, your mixing subjectivity and objectivity!   :tongue:

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The second question is: Did God intend man to reach his current form or was man's final form a free-flowing event?

If the latter: God created a world where conscious beings may never have occurred. In which case we might have never become men wherein God says "it is good" but instead we just as easily (more probably) have remained amoeba or even loose strands of protein and God would have called it "good enough" and still rested on the 7th day.

But seeing as molecules, atoms, waves and quanta only work in certain manners--round pegs being ill-suited for square holes--it seems God did not simply scatter his Tinker-Toys allowing them to assume whatever form they fell into.

If the former we ask: did God allow events to unfold or did he nudge them from time to time to a pre-determined end?

Again, taking the latter first: This is in effect claiming a day of creation might as well be reckoned a billion years each. I fnd it to be the weakest argument among christians embarrassed by their own creation stories colliding with materialist fact but it bodes worst for would-be materialists too embarrassed to admit they want to be christians.

It certainly fills the bill for your timid cravings of Purpose, Hope and Beneficence but it so thoroughly mishandles the cration story of Genesis as to devolve (heh) from an discussion of science into a dialogue on hermeneutics. It ceases to be a matter of "what does science say" as it is more a matter of "are we reading this right?" and I have no desire for THAT conversation.


The structure of this whole ending to your rants really make it hard to follow... whatever points you were trying to make get lost.   Somehow you jump from theistic evolution concepts to basically calling me a wanna-be Christian.  I'll try anyhow...

Near I can tell, you are trying say that if evolution was kick-started by the divine.... it bodes badly for materialists (at least one's who don't subscribe to your version of it)?  Well duuh..  I'd say it bodes pretty badly for your own version as well.

I do agree that the reality of evolution does bode badly for classical theism... though not any more than say the existence of needless suffering in general.  They have their rationalizations to get through those hurdles... evolution isnt much different.

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As to the former: it says man was meant to be but he was meant to scratch, claw and kill his way into his current form amid a world of bitter cold, wasting plagues and languishing starvation and on up into...what exactly we don't know. If that be the case it was no God that brought us here but a raving devil.

Or it could be a god of limited capacity.  The possibilities are rather endless.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 09:26:40 PM by rubliw »

Offline Sam Adams

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 12:43:47 AM »
There has never been a conflict between a creator (of any kind) and TToE.




That is ridiculous beyond words. The Theory of Evolution is completely contradicted by the Bible.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2009, 10:08:54 AM »
Despite your efforts to dismiss my points without argument by labelling my criticisms as a "rant" you have made assertions that have no foundation. Condensed they are:

...what moral vacuum?

...

God (should one exist) is as completely arbitrary and purposeless as us, or the universe.  If you have already accepted the proposition that a conscious being (called God) can somehow endow things with objective purpose or meaning, then you loose all claims to say that we can not provide it ourselves, as conscious beings.  There's nothing special about the god concept that renders it more capable of this than ourselves.

Allegedly, God anchors purpose and objectivity by providing something unchanging and external to which we can all appeal.  But the universe itself and our nature, does that just fine..  sure the universe changes, eventually... but its stable enough for our 'purposes'... and  that's good enough.
It appears you are arguing that theere is no moral vacuum and if morality does exist it need not be rooted in theistic supposition...even if God does exist (apparently He has no say in His creation). Can you justify these statements based solely on empirical observation (the presumed standard of evolutionary theory)?

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The possibilities are rather endless.
And it seems you shall fabricate as many flights of fancy as are required to puff up your position...whatever it may be.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2009, 12:09:50 PM »
That is ridiculous beyond words. The Theory of Evolution is completely contradicted by the Bible.
Only for those that use the Bible as their science reference.  Does it also explain the Red Shift?

The important thing to realize is that the Bible is a theological text.  Because someone understands TToE, along with physics, chemistry, etc., it means nothing in terms of their relationship with God.

Or are you going to tell us that the Universe is 7,000 years old? If not, then you must also be one of them God-hatin' atheist commies.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2009, 04:06:06 PM »
Only for those that use the Bible as their science reference.  Does it also explain the Red Shift?

The important thing to realize is that the Bible is a theological text.  Because someone understands TToE, along with physics, chemistry, etc., it means nothing in terms of their relationship with God.

Or are you going to tell us that the Universe is 7,000 years old? If not, then you must also be one of them God-hatin' atheist commies.

I think it was Copernicus that said the job of scripture was to teach man how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2009, 04:08:08 PM »
I think it was Copernicus that said the job of scripture was to teach man how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go.

Well stated, indeed.
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Offline Sam Adams

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2009, 01:01:15 AM »
Only for those that use the Bible as their science reference.  Does it also explain the Red Shift?

The important thing to realize is that the Bible is a theological text.  Because someone understands TToE, along with physics, chemistry, etc., it means nothing in terms of their relationship with God.

Or are you going to tell us that the Universe is 7,000 years old? If not, then you must also be one of them God-hatin' atheist commies.


The Bible is primarily a religious text. But it is not ONLY a religious text. When it makes statements about science, or history, it is as completely inerrant as it the rest of the time. And it clearly teaches that God created the universe is six days of ordinary length.

What this has to do with the Red Shift is anybody's guess.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2009, 01:13:52 AM »
The Bible is primarily a religious text. But it is not ONLY a religious text. When it makes statements about science, or history, it is as completely inerrant as it the rest of the time. And it clearly teaches that God created the universe is six days of ordinary length.

What this has to do with the Red Shift is anybody's guess.

You selective choose to use the Bible as a scientific text.  If it such, then you must find ALL science in it.  And the underlying forces involved. And the Red Shift has no meaning in a Universe < many billion years old.  Which contradicts the Bible. So the Bible is inerrant and modern astronomy, geology, cosmology, geophysics, and physics are all wrong?

And, of course, you HAVE read the Bible in its original language to avoid translation errors, right? You know what a Yom is for example., right?

BTW: I know the source of the 6,000-7,000 year basis for YEC.  You have a real problem now if you say that the Universe is < that.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 01:15:35 AM by freedumb2003 »
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Offline Sam Adams

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2009, 03:28:22 AM »
You selective choose to use the Bible as a scientific text.  If it such, then you must find ALL science in it. 


That is absurd.

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 So the Bible is inerrant and modern astronomy, geology, cosmology, geophysics, and physics are all wrong?


No.

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And, of course, you HAVE read the Bible in its original language to avoid translation errors, right? You know what a Yom is for example., right?


Yes. And yes.



Well, then. That was easy.

Offline rubliw

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2009, 12:26:42 AM »
It appears you are arguing that theere is no moral vacuum and if morality does exist it need not be rooted in theistic supposition...

Yes, of course there are morals exist objectively...  or at least objectively enough for our purposes.  There needn't be anything transcendent about a moral.. its simply a rule that, in theory, (should) aid in survival and hopefully enable people and their communities to thrive. 

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even if God does exist (apparently He has no say in His creation).

You have implied that if theism were true, we would have value, purpose, objectivity, meaning, worth etc.  But what am I to make of this statement, when you say:

"To whom does that life have value: itself? A worthless proposition. A thing made by accident, scratching about from one moment to the next in a futile effort to dodge the death that will inevitably claim it cannot have value."

How can God value himself?  How can God provide worth to himself?  How can God, if he is the "alpha and omega" so to speak, provide a basis for any objectivity?  If he is subject to nothing external, than everything that exists is simply his own arbitrary subjective whim. To simply say God can only provide these things is the worthless proposition.  God has to be the ultimate nihilist and the ultimate relativist if a being cannot value itself.  You concede to much to the theists by accepting that the god-concept is an exclusive provider of objectivity or purpose (or anything else for that matter). 

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Can you justify these statements based solely on empirical observation (the presumed standard of evolutionary theory)?

Can you dispute the fact that there are objectively discernible actions that lead to the thriving of humanity (or to its ruin)?  If not, then there are objective morals. 

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And it seems you shall fabricate as many flights of fancy as are required to puff up your position...whatever it may be.

God IS a flight of fancy... as long as we're letting our imaginations run away with us... there's no reason to suspect, nor any evidence to suggest, that if a god does exist and was the creator of us all that he is the omni* capable god of classical theism... or even a devil.  He could be well intentioned, but of limited power.  Either way, its all just speculation...  there could be teams of gods, no gods, incompetent but well meaning gods, all powerful and evil gods, etc etc.... and limitless possibilities in between.  Theists have no recourse to justify the existence of their gods beyond the level of flights of fancy, and neither do we.  I don't think you really were trying to do that, but oh well. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 01:08:52 AM by rubliw »

Offline Chris_

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Re: Is Richard Dawkins still evolving?
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2009, 06:13:30 AM »

That is absurd.

No.

Yes. And yes.



Well, then. That was easy.
So, the Bible is only a scientific text in ONE area, by your assertions, right?
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.