On Cop killers...DU style

[dutch508]

malaise  (1000+ posts)      Tue Dec-01-09 03:42 PM
Original message http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7126138
How does one man kill four cops
 in a coffee shop and leave with a gun belonging to one of the cops. Was the coffee shop empty?
This story isn't making too much sense.
By the way ****abee actually made sense today - a 99 year prison sentence for burglary by a 16 year old was beyond excessive.

anonymous171  (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-01-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. It was staged by the cops so they would have an excuse to kill more minorities

juajen  (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-01-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. I was asking myself the same question. I'm also not sure
 why they knew right away who killed the four policemen. I am also suspicious of the gun. Why would he even need it? I believe it was planted to make sure they were not accused of hasty judgment and killing. After all, who could say it wasn't him, if he had one of the victim's guns. Something doesn't sound right.

How did they know it was him in the first place? We are not being told much. I have no sympathy for him if he is, indeed, the killer. Just want to know why it's ok to have vigilante justice by the police, but not by civilians, and what happened to being innocent until proven guilty? I'm waiting for more info; but, so far, I'm not getting it.

jasi2006 (403 posts)      Tue Dec-01-09 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. The bit about him having one of the officer's guns is a bit much,.
 More likely planted to justify shooting this criminal. I for one think his death a moral victory for the law and justice system. Providing this is the right guy, it sure saves a lot of time, money, and heartache.

gratuitous  (1000+ posts)      Tue Dec-01-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. The solution: More guns
 See, if the baristas in the coffee shop had been packing, they could have shot Clemmons (or whoever the shooter was). What we really need is for more people to have guns, and be on hair-trigger alert to use them at any time. Sure, there will be some unfortunate accidents from time to time, but isn't that better than having four police officers shot dead? At least, that's what I infer from some of the commentary I've seen, heard and read in the last few days.

Or we could think of something else that didn't involve an escalation in firearms and violence. But that's crazy talk, that is.

Such irony of course, was not planned.

[Ralph Wiggum]

anonymous171  (1000+ posts)       
Tue Dec-01-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. It was staged by the cops so they would have an excuse to kill more minorities

This one is headed to the "posts that stand alone" thread.

[thundley4]

This one is headed to the "posts that stand alone" thread.

Killing 4 white cops to kill one minority could only make sense to a  DUmmie.

[Chump]

juajen  (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-01-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. I was asking myself the same question. I'm also not sure
 why they knew right away who killed the four policemen. I am also suspicious of the gun. Why would he even need it? I believe it was planted to make sure they were not accused of hasty judgment and killing. After all, who could say it wasn't him, if he had one of the victim's guns. Something doesn't sound right.

How did they know it was him in the first place? We are not being told much. I have no sympathy for him if he is, indeed, the killer. Just want to know why it's ok to have vigilante justice by the police, but not by civilians, and what happened to being innocent until proven guilty? I'm waiting for more info; but, so far, I'm not getting it.

Because lawful arrest and suppression of a deadly threat is not vigilante justice, you stupid ****wad.

[thundley4]

Because lawful arrest and suppression of a deadly threat is not vigilante justice, you stupid ****wad.

Some states do allow for deadly force to be used by people for self defense.  That would also be vigilante justice in a way.

[Chump]

Some states do allow for deadly force to be used by people for self defense.  That would also be vigilante justice in a way.

I dunno.  The law pretty clearly establishes a difference between the two.  Otherwise, I'm guessing our right to defend ourselves from a deadly threat would've long ago been challenged in that very manner.

[Chump]

And while I'm thinking about it, are there actually any states that don't allow their citizens to use deadly force in response to a mortal threat?

[DefiantSix]

I dunno.  The law pretty clearly establishes a difference between the two.  Otherwise, I'm guessing our right to defend ourselves from a deadly threat would've long ago been challenged in that very manner.

The difference is that self defense applies only while in immediate fear for your life or the life of someone in your immediate vicinity.  Once the bandit gets away, or is in the act of retreating, the authority for deadly force in self defense goes away, unless you can demonstrate positively that the bad guy was retreating only so he could reload/re-arm in the course of coming back to do further harm.  Vigilantism is a step even further than that, where a perp not actively in the commission of a crime is hunted down, either by a victim or previously uninvolved bystander(s).

That is the set of definitions I remember from my CCW courses (Arizona and Colorado's).  Tanker could probably give a more exact definition that I did, but this should be workable for now.

[BadCat]

And while I'm thinking about it, are there actually any states that don't allow their citizens to use deadly force in response to a mortal threat?

Kalifornia.
Your first and foremost duty is to RETREAT.

[Freeper]

Killing 4 white cops to kill one minority could only make sense to a  DUmmie.

It has to be sarcasm but knowing the DUmp he may really believe that.

[Freeper]

gopiscrap  Donating Member  (367 posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 10:45 AM
Original message
Police Kill SUSPECTED Cop Killer   Updated at 10:45 AM
   
In south Seattle early this morning a lone officer gunned down Maurice Celmmons the suspect in the fatal shooting of four Lakewood, Washington cops on Sunday morning. Maybe he did it, or maybe he didn't. Now we might never know. The tv reports reported it saying he was running away. I just knew that this would end in his death. I don't even think the Seattle cop tried to apprehend him with out harm!

From another thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7123083

Yeah he only killed 4 of his brothers he should have just given him a warning and let him go. 

Renew Deal  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Let me guess. You think the Somali pirates are fishermen?

 

marlakay  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
83. My husband doesn't think he had time to take a gun
   
with shooting them then fighting with the last guy and getting shot. He left his gun at the coffee shop and they didn't want to shoot him without a gun, DH thinks they planted gun on him after listening to all witnesses to know exactly what they saw.

Yeah the racist cops just shot the first black man they came across and planted a gun. 

Sukie  (511 posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. He was found with a gun from one of the slain cops.
   
Hmm. Wonder how he got it?

It was planted of course.

Neecy  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. This was entirely predictable
   
If a guy is running and not a threat to the officer, don't they try to shoot to bring him down, not fill him with lead?

Cop execution, pure and simple. I knew this would be the outcome.

Yep cry yourself to sleep over this worthless POS I guess he must be a hero since he took out 4 racist cops. I wonder if Obama thinks the cop acted stupidly.

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. he has a gun. one cop. guy is running away. murderer. kills cops. and you are on cops ass
   
cause he didnt go for the kill?

just wound the dude, so more chance once guy is down he can kill the lone cop.

wtf

Yeah because life is just like the movies where the good cops have time to aim and shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand then arrest him.

Xenotime  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
14. Why didn't he just tazer him and bring him under control?
   
No. It seems they just act as judge, jury and executioner anymore. Prepare for more copycat retaliation attacks. This is not the way to stop violence.

And if he was injured from the tazer, you would be boo hooing all over the place just the same.

John N Morgan  (42 posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
37. judge, jury and executioner. Even soldiers can bring in prisoners.

Yeah and now they have to read them their rights and find them a lawyer.

To be fair a lot of the dummies are saying the cop did the right thing.

cliffordu  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 12:04 PM
Original message
Not if the suspect is armed or the cop is alone.
   
This ****ing guy PROBABLY killed 4 cops - I'm glad the officer that shot him isn't dead along with them.

Bringing in a guy who is the only suspect in the killing four people - armed, trained people - with a handgun at point blank range leaves NO room for tazering or tickling or bad talk to get him to come in.


The idea that you can actually think that is beyond me.

cliffordu  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. You're right about everything, of course, and the suspect was actually
   
trying to get the gummy bears out of his pocket to share with the officer when the cop went all rogue on him and shot him.

 

SoCalDem  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Tue Dec-01-09 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
63. He was carrying a service revolver from one of the cops he killed
   
and a cop-bullet was in his belly.. The state of WA was spared a lot of angst and expense..who knows? he might have taken another cop's life before being subdued..

There lurking DUmmies I was fair and balanced and showed some posts of those who are on the right side of this issue.

[Duke Nukum]

Kalifornia.
Your first and foremost duty is to RETREAT.

I think the same is true in Wisconsin.  It was originally settled by the French, I think. At any rate it had a large role in the French and Indian War.  And something to do with Father Marquette.

[JohnnyReb]

I can think of a thousand expletives to call the DUmmies....none of them are suitably bad enough to describe that level of....of....of.....Hell I can't even think of a word to describe that much stupid.

Hell, they're all unemployed and wanting "Benefits"...why don't they put their ass out there on the line?

[BlueStateSaint]

I think the same is true in Wisconsin.  It was originally settled by the French, I think. At any rate it had a large role in the French and Indian War.  And something to do with Father Marquette.

Same in the PRNY--unless you are in your home.

[crockspot]

I love the "shoot to wing 'em" arguments. I hope if a DUmmy should ever be unfortunate enough to get shot, the shooter "wings" them in each elbow and kneecap.

[Wineslob]

Some states do allow for deadly force to be used by people for self defense.  That would also be vigilante justice in a way.

I for one, have no quarrel with this.

[BlueStateSaint]

I love the "shoot to wing 'em" arguments. I hope if a DUmmy should ever be unfortunate enough to get shot, the shooter "wings" them in each elbow and kneecap.

With either a Glaser Safety Slug or a Magsafe . . .

[lastparker]

malaise  (1000+ posts)      Tue Dec-01-09 03:42 PM
Original message http://www.democraticunde...l&address=389x7126138
How does one man kill four cops
 in a coffee shop and leave with a gun belonging to one of the cops. Was the coffee shop empty?
This story isn't making too much sense.
By the way ****abee actually made sense today - a 99 year prison sentence for burglary by a 16 year old was beyond excessive.

Awww, Malaise!  You're obviously not keeping up with your fellow crackpots in other threads:

msanthrope  (1000+ posts)      Sun Nov-29-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. "POI" was released by Mike Huckabee.....
 

Nine years ago, then-Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee granted clemency to Clemmons, commuting his lengthy prison sentence over the protests of prosecutors.

"This is the day I've been dreading for a long time," Larry Jegley, prosecuting attorney for Arkansas' Pulaski County said Sunday night when informed that Clemmons was being sought in connection to the killings.

Clemmons' criminal history includes at least five felony convictions in Arkansas and at least eight felony charges in Washington. The record also stands out for the number of times he has been released from custody despite questions about the danger he posed.

Clemmons had been in jail in Pierce County for the past several months on a pending charge of second-degree rape of a child.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385...

Who also released Wayne Dumond, because the victim was a Clinton relative...
"DuMond received his second sexual assault conviction from a rape perpetrated in Arkansas in 1984. The victim, Ashley Stevens, was a 17-year-old cheerleader and a third cousin of then-Governor Bill Clinton.<9> Although she is much younger than Clinton, they share the same set of great-great-grandparents.

SNIP

After Clinton was elected president, a right-wing campaign alleged that Clinton had framed DuMond for rape.<10><11> Prominent among those pushing for DuMond to be pardoned were Guy Reel, author of Unequal Justice: Wayne DuMond, Bill Clinton, and the Politics of Rape in Arkansas; Steve Dunleavy of the New York Post; and Jay Cole, Baptist pastor for the Mission Fellowship Bible Church in Fayetteville, who had championed DuMond's cause for more than a decade on his radio show.<12>

Many of the arguments advanced by DuMond's supporters have since been shown to be incorrect. Dunleavy claimed that:

1.DuMond was a "Vietnam veteran with no record" despite arrests for violent crime and previous rape charges going back to 1972;
2.the rape victim "failed to identify DuMond in two lineups", although she had in fact identified him in the only lineup where he was present:
3.the victim had "identified two other suspects, one an ex-boyfriend", although she had never in fact identified anyone but DuMond;
4.DNA evidence had exonerated DuMond, although no such definitive evidence existed;
5.Bill Clinton had personally intervened to keep DuMond in prison, despite the then-Governor's explicitly recusing himself from the case due to his distant blood-ties to the 17-year-old victim.<13>
Dunleavy also referred to the young woman, a minor at the time of the assault, on the record as the "so-called victim", and asserted "that rape never happened".<12>
SNIP----

Missouri crimes
Following his 1999 parole, DuMond moved to Missouri in August 2000, where he married Terry Sue, a member of a church group who visited him while he was incarcerated in Arkansas. On June 22, 2001, DuMond was arrested and charged with the September 20, 2000, rape and murder of Carol Sue Shields.<22> DuMond was convicted in the summer of 2003.<23>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_DuMond
 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4164130#4165063

[Chump]

Kalifornia.
Your first and foremost duty is to RETREAT.

No shit?  If I shoot someone who whips out a knife while attempting to rob me instead of waving my hands in the air while running away, I'm in trouble?  That's insanity.

[Chris_]

No shit?  If I shoot someone who whips out a knife while attempting to rob me instead of waving my hands in the air while running away, I'm in trouble?  That's insanity.

As someone mentioned upthread, New York is the same......when we lived there, several of our neighbors were NYPD, and most of them knew that our house had at least some (unregistered) firearms........to a man they all told us that if you have to shoot an intruder, "be sure to drag him inside......"

doc

[jukin]

Anybody or anything worth shooting once is worth shooting two, or three times.

Dead men tell no tales.

[Chris_]

Anybody or anything worth shooting once is worth shooting two, or three times.

Dead men tell no tales.

Continue firing until the threat is neutralized.........or you run out of ammunition, which ever comes first......

doc

[RobJohnson]

what happened to being innocent until proven guilty?

This from a DUmmy?    The DUmp calls everyone guilty prior to any type of trial, take for instance GWB.

[Randy]

So just for my gratification, just how many gut shot black men are running around in their community at any one time?

Just a simple quest for knowledge on my part.

[Chris_]

So just for my gratification, just how many gut shot black men are running around in their community at any one time?

Just a simple quest for knowledge on my part.

Thankfully the answer appears to be.....none any more.....

doc