Author Topic: A new tax system  (Read 5357 times)

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Offline Carl

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A new tax system
« on: December 26, 2009, 03:48:51 PM »
It was suggested in another thread that discussion of this could be interesting so I will start one.

In that thread I said that I don`t believe that there ever will be a change in the income tax system we have today as it is too much a political tool.

Still though being a bit bored figured it could make for good discussion but please just explain ones position or politely point out flaws or shortcomings with others.

Going back to what I said about not considering it likely to ever happen I honestly have not thought much on the subject but as a basic ideal I would have.

I would favor an acrossed the board personal income tax rate..guess that is the flat tax idea,no loopholes
Personally I don`t care if a person making 10 or 100 times what I do pays the same percentage.
There could also be a national sales tax which would be somewhat "progressive" just because one with more ability to purchase may and therefore pay more tax.
The idea wouldn`t be punitive though.
Tariffs would have to be realistic given that we live in a global economy like it or not,that will not change.
I would have no tax on business profits or on capital gains,nor on estates.

That is a start and will honestly say I don`t know if any could be done to eventually bring the budget into balance (assuming for this exercise the needed cuts will be made to get it to a workable level).

So have at it,propose something different or point out where this basic plan fails.
How would the economy benefit and how would it suffer?
If it suffered would there be any ability to help it recover?

Please be courteous. :)

Offline rich_t

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 12:05:26 AM »
It was suggested in another thread that discussion of this could be interesting so I will start one.

In that thread I said that I don`t believe that there ever will be a change in the income tax system we have today as it is too much a political tool.

Still though being a bit bored figured it could make for good discussion but please just explain ones position or politely point out flaws or shortcomings with others.

Going back to what I said about not considering it likely to ever happen I honestly have not thought much on the subject but as a basic ideal I would have.

I would favor an acrossed the board personal income tax rate..guess that is the flat tax idea,no loopholes
Personally I don`t care if a person making 10 or 100 times what I do pays the same percentage.
There could also be a national sales tax which would be somewhat "progressive" just because one with more ability to purchase may and therefore pay more tax.
The idea wouldn`t be punitive though.
Tariffs would have to be realistic given that we live in a global economy like it or not,that will not change.
I would have no tax on business profits or on capital gains,nor on estates.

That is a start and will honestly say I don`t know if any could be done to eventually bring the budget into balance (assuming for this exercise the needed cuts will be made to get it to a workable level).

So have at it,propose something different or point out where this basic plan fails.
How would the economy benefit and how would it suffer?
If it suffered would there be any ability to help it recover?

Please be courteous. :)


A national sales tax might be better.  That way all those under the table illegal alien types will pay taxes.
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Offline docstew

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2009, 02:15:09 PM »
A national sales tax might be better.  That way all those under the table illegal alien types will pay taxes.

Plus the drug dealers, and other criminals who work in cash only...

Offline Carl

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2009, 02:35:47 PM »
If there was a national sales tax only what would the percentage need to be just to equal the average revenue the government has taken in the last 10 years under the current system?

Offline rich_t

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2009, 03:39:00 PM »
If there was a national sales tax only what would the percentage need to be just to equal the average revenue the government has taken in the last 10 years under the current system?

I would estimate 12-15%.
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Offline Carl

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2009, 05:54:35 PM »
I would estimate 12-15%.

Would that be politically receptive?

Offline thundley4

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2009, 06:35:44 PM »
Would that be politically receptive?

You have to remember that this would involve the removal of most other taxes on people and on businesses.  Getting rid of all the hidden taxes that are paid now, would let people see just how much is really being taken from them also.

Offline Carl

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2009, 06:59:26 PM »
Agreed but question how popular it would be in the long run as money withheld is never missed.

It could be a good thing too as it makes government spending as it relates to taxes more real.

Offline rich_t

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 08:19:36 PM »
Agreed but question how popular it would be in the long run as money withheld is never missed.

It could be a good thing too as it makes government spending as it relates to taxes more real.

Money withheld is never missed by you perhaps.

But I look at the withholdings on my paycheck and trust me..  I notice it.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline rich_t

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 08:23:39 PM »
Would that be politically receptive?

Your problem is that you are overly concerned with what might be politically receptive.

I live in the real world where the working population doesn't give a shit about what might be politically receptive.
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Offline Carl

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 08:37:39 PM »
Your problem is that you are overly concerned with what might be politically receptive.

I live in the real world where the working population doesn't give a shit about what might be politically receptive.

Well check the last couple of elections and I think you will find that what is implausible was politically receptive.
Not all the population goes out of their way to inform themselves on issues and consequences.
We can talk all day long about what is perfect to us but if there is never a chance in hell that it would happen then ehhh.
That is what I think of the whole subject even though it is popular to discuss and I said so at the start.
Was just trying to have some sort of fun discussion is all.

Offline Oceander

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 08:46:07 PM »
A national retail sales tax is, with all due respect, a total non-starter.  To begin with, in order to replace all of the revenue derived from the current income tax, the NRST tax rate - and here I am stating it in the same form as the current state sales taxes are stated: as a percentage of the sales price exclusive of the tax itself - would have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of about 50%.  That is, if the pre-tax price of a good was $100, the tax on that sale would have to be $50, for a total price, after taxes, of $150.

Certain proponents of the NRST play an amusing little game of "hide the rate" by stating a rate of tax without stating whether that rate is based on a price that is inclusive of tax or exclusive of tax.  For example, the rate I gave above is 50% on a tax-exclusive basis; however, if I want to be able to quote you a less scary rate of tax, then I tell you what the rate is on a tax-inclusive basis (without, of course, explaining to you what the difference is).  That would be stating the tax paid - $50 - as a percentage of the total after tax price - $150 - which is $50/$150 = 33.33% 

33.33% sounds like a lot, but it sure doesn't sound as scary as 50%, does it?

Also, the one aspect that not a single NRST proponent has ever dealt with on any level, superficial or in-depth, is the problem of non-compliance and theft by the retailers who are the only people required to collect the tax, as well as the massive amount of new organized criminal activity such a tax would engender.

These are substantial problems that already bedevil the penny-ante state sales tax systems we already have, as well as the existing federal excise taxes (such as the excise taxes on fuels) that are already levied and collected from the seller.

For a review of the issues relating to the rate that a NRST would have to be imposed at, along with some discussion of the problems like noncompliance and organized crime, there is a very good paper on the subject by a gent from the Brookings Institution by the name of William G. Gale, titled: The National Retail Sales Tax: What Would the Rate Have To Be?.  The pdf version of that article can be directly d/l'ed here.

Mr. Gale has also written other articles and whitepapers on the subject, some of which are also available for free from the Brookings Instutition.

On the point about illegal aliens, drug dealers, and other criminals who work in cash only paying taxes - that point is not well taken for the simple reason that none of them, in particular drug dealers, are going to be charging sales tax on the sales they make, and thus the revenue generated by them will net out to about zero.  In other words, no really big change.

Offline bkg

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 11:49:50 PM »
I would estimate 12-15%.

The FairTax folks suggest 30% (though they spin it as 23%... I called one of them out on the radio for it, and the backpeddaling was quite sad).

If you base it on GDP and kill some entitlements, the 12-15% would work. Unfortunately, I also have to agree that it's a non-starter for three reasons. First is the reason Oceander mentioned. To replace current revenues (rather, the revenues under the last year of Bush), the go'vt would increase the tax to a level that people woud reject.

Second, private sales and used items would have to get nailed. Just like MN sales tax charges for used auto's, the fed sales tax would have to do the same or see a loss in revenue. IIRC, the FairTax doesn't support taxation of used items.

Third, and by far the most imporant, it would be viewed as a regressive tax. People who don't pay taxes now, would see the largest tax increase. That would be fine by many people, but not the political establishment whoudl would then fight it tooth and nail to protect their voting block.

Otherwise, I agree with the sales tax route as it gives ME the power to control my tax bill. At the same time, I'd support a COTUS amendment to have a flat tax at 10% for all, with more limited deductions (mortgage and healthcare would be the two I'd support. I'm mixed on how to handle buisiness owners).

Offline Oceander

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2009, 11:57:50 PM »
Please do not forget about the amount of tax-stealing that would go on.  Trust me, right now, thanks to the massive increases in cigarette sales taxes, particularly in NYC, the mob is having a field-day - they steal cigarettes by the boxload, or simply purchase them from the manufacturers for export only (say, to Canada) and then smuggle them back across the border and sell them, cash on the barrelhead, to retailers (after slapping on counterfeit tax stamps, of course).  Just after the effing idiots in Congress pushed through the last massive increase in the federal cigarette tax, there was a story on a guy who was arrested in Fairfax County, VA (in NoVA), for running a massive international cigarette counterfeiting operation that went up to New York and down several states, and that was grossing several million dollars a year just selling counterfeit cigarette tax stamps that were probably printed up in China.

If you suddenly put that much of an incentive to counterfeit tax stamps or otherwise make off with retail sales tax revenues, you're going to have the mob getting into almost every line of business - heck, all of the candy sellers will suddenly find themselves mobbed up to the neck - you might as well call it the Organized Crime Welfare Tax as call it the national retail sales tax.

Offline bkg

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2009, 12:03:06 AM »
Please do not forget about the amount of tax-stealing that would go on.  Trust me, right now, thanks to the massive increases in cigarette sales taxes, particularly in NYC, the mob is having a field-day - they steal cigarettes by the boxload, or simply purchase them from the manufacturers for export only (say, to Canada) and then smuggle them back across the border and sell them, cash on the barrelhead, to retailers (after slapping on counterfeit tax stamps, of course).  Just after the effing idiots in Congress pushed through the last massive increase in the federal cigarette tax, there was a story on a guy who was arrested in Fairfax County, VA (in NoVA), for running a massive international cigarette counterfeiting operation that went up to New York and down several states, and that was grossing several million dollars a year just selling counterfeit cigarette tax stamps that were probably printed up in China.

If you suddenly put that much of an incentive to counterfeit tax stamps or otherwise make off with retail sales tax revenues, you're going to have the mob getting into almost every line of business - heck, all of the candy sellers will suddenly find themselves mobbed up to the neck - you might as well call it the Organized Crime Welfare Tax as call it the national retail sales tax.

Good points. And my largest concern with any sales tax model has been the fear of gov't constantly increasing the tax to suit their whims... And eventually, thy will have a progressive sales tax. MN wants to have a progressive property tax... Charge prop tax based on income in addition to the house value. I'd like to find a way to make all tax increases require a COTUS amendment. Nice dream, I guess.

Offline Chris_

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2009, 07:39:11 AM »
The FairTax folks suggest 30% (though they spin it as 23%... I called one of them out on the radio for it, and the backpeddaling was quite sad).

If you base it on GDP and kill some entitlements, the 12-15% would work. Unfortunately, I also have to agree that it's a non-starter for three reasons. First is the reason Oceander mentioned. To replace current revenues (rather, the revenues under the last year of Bush), the go'vt would increase the tax to a level that people woud reject.

Second, private sales and used items would have to get nailed. Just like MN sales tax charges for used auto's, the fed sales tax would have to do the same or see a loss in revenue. IIRC, the FairTax doesn't support taxation of used items.

Third, and by far the most imporant, it would be viewed as a regressive tax. People who don't pay taxes now, would see the largest tax increase. That would be fine by many people, but not the political establishment whoudl would then fight it tooth and nail to protect their voting block.

Otherwise, I agree with the sales tax route as it gives ME the power to control my tax bill. At the same time, I'd support a COTUS amendment to have a flat tax at 10% for all, with more limited deductions (mortgage and healthcare would be the two I'd support. I'm mixed on how to handle buisiness owners).

As I have always heard...If 10% is good enough for God it should be good enough for the Govt.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2009, 08:45:12 AM »
And it ain't just the mobs, kiddies--seems our good folks in Dearbornistan have been doing that for a while and channeling the funds to Hezbollah...

LINK
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Offline Chump

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2009, 09:21:13 AM »
I like your points Carl, with the exception of a progressive sales tax.  You say it wouldn't be punitive, but in order for that to hold true you'd have to make the progression so negligible it would end up being essentially non-existent.  Maybe that's the point though.  Overall, I'd support either a flat sales tax and no income tax, or a flat income tax and no sales tax.  I don't think it's logical or right to tax one's income and then tax him for spending what he has left over, or vice-versa.

The only thing I'd add is that we should outlaw check withholdings.  Force folks to actually write a check to pay their tax bill and we'd have tax reform quicker than you can say, "Who the hell is FICA?"
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2009, 01:07:48 PM »
And it ain't just the mobs, kiddies--seems our good folks in Dearbornistan have been doing that for a while and channeling the funds to Hezbollah...

LINK

They caught a large Muslim group smuggling cigarettes outta NC a few years back....they were going to New York.
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Offline Carl

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2009, 04:25:43 PM »
I like your points Carl, with the exception of a progressive sales tax.  You say it wouldn't be punitive, but in order for that to hold true you'd have to make the progression so negligible it would end up being essentially non-existent.  Maybe that's the point though.  Overall, I'd support either a flat sales tax and no income tax, or a flat income tax and no sales tax.  I don't think it's logical or right to tax one's income and then tax him for spending what he has left over, or vice-versa.

The only thing I'd add is that we should outlaw check withholdings.  Force folks to actually write a check to pay their tax bill and we'd have tax reform quicker than you can say, "Who the hell is FICA?"

I didn`t mean progressive by design where one would pay a higher rate based on income but just the default assumption that one with more purchasing power will use it so will pay more as they spend.
It would still be a flat acrossed the board percentage.

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2009, 04:49:15 PM »
Tax stealing is what the IRS does. hah

Offline rich_t

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2009, 10:40:29 PM »
I think we all can agree that the current system sucks and needs to be replaced.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2009, 10:42:21 PM »
I think we all can agree that the current system sucks and needs to be replaced.

Well, at the very least, it needs to be put back on a sound footing:  wide base/low marginal rates, no political gimmies.

Offline rich_t

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2009, 10:45:30 PM »
Well, at the very least, it needs to be put back on a sound footing:  wide base/low marginal rates, no political gimmies.

I honestly don't think the current system can be fixed.
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: A new tax system
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2009, 10:46:51 PM »
Abolish it and start over.

Start at a 0.1% flat tax and no debt spending.