sparkling old dude points to someone else

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021537274

Oh my.

Stinky The Clown (47,534 posts)    Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:32 PM

What do you think accounts for the rise in incivility?

That rise is evident everywhere.

Stand in the grocery line and you'll hear people being rude, often to the cashiers, but also to each other.

Look at the weekly magazines and newspapers. Front page incivility.

The movies and teevee shows, where incivility is celebrated.

Think of your own driving habits. You yelling at other drivers. Other drivers flipping you off. Incivility abounds. They ought to report that on the Traffic On The Eights segments.

In politics, you see incivility raised to a fine art. Institutionalized meanness. Self control is seen as a weakness. Just blurt it out. "You Lie!" The term "My Friend" said with the venomous inflection we can safely assume was learned from a rattlesnake.

Look at the internet. Blogs that take distinct sides and, lacking the ability to have face to face encounters, raise the temperature of the rhetoric to levels that, in polite society, could land one in front of judge, charge with threat to do bodily harm.

We are all guilty of this. All of us. All sides of all issues represented by incivility.

Where did it come from?

I have no doubt many will consider this and point to someone else.

Probably loudly.

With a glare.

Or a sneer.

How did we get here? And when?

Big campfire, but the sparkling old dude's in the habit of lighting one, and running away instead of hanging around and getting engaged in the discussion with the other primitives.

Bigmack (6,135 posts)   Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:44 PM

3. Two countries...

I think it goes deeper than politics. We've become two countries. I think the anti-science and anti-intellectual and anti-reason forces in this country have grown much stronger. 30% of Republicans believe that Obama is a Muslim. More people in this country believe in angels than in evolution. 15% of Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth. We have members of Congress on the Science committee who say that evolution and the Big Bang are satanic ideas.

We are two countries.

One country is Belief oriented....the only thing that counts is what your gut and heart tells you. They believe what they want regardless of facts. They are susceptible to meaningless phrases, stereotypes, symbols, irrational biases, and simplistic diagnoses and solutions that play on their hopes and fears.

The other country is Reality/Fact based... facts count, and emotions less so. The two countries are miles apart. There can be little compromise on abortion, for example, if one side believes their god forbids it, while the other side says the decision is up to the individual, and not an occult being. Us lefties simply will not compromise with people who base their world view on myths.

If the two countries in the US were a married couple, any counselor would tell us to get a divorce.

 

slackmaster (55,987 posts)    Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:45 PM

7. Bush, Disco, perceived anonymity, and our failure to adopt the Metric System

Also smokers and fat people.

leftstreet (20,808 posts)    Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:50 PM

9. Nonsense. People are more 'civil' now than ever

There is no evidence of a 'rise in incivility'

Violent crime in the US is at it lowest rates in decades

You and your neighbors aren't being hauled to jail daily for punching each other

Families and neighbors are doubling up living quarters and helping each other economically

Rhetoric from politicians is nothing new. At least no one's getting beheaded

grasswire (35,482 posts)    Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:55 PM

11. good question, Stinky

We might blame it on television. We might blame it on hate radio of the right.

A good way to look for answers might be to look back a few decades to see how things were then. Television of the fifties/sixties shows a very very different U.S. The culture has "coarsened"; there were more standards of civility and people wanted to appear good and prosperous. Politeness was admired.

I don't have any answers. Just as sex has been commodified, so has rudeness.

By the way, I don't fault Biden for "my friend" -- that just standard lingo for senators.

^^^wonders if the pie-and-jam primitive is still sticking ice-cubes in her brassiere.

MineralMan (47,462 posts)   Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:08 PM

19. For fairness' sake, we really only notice the people who are not civil. We don't notice the driver who sees us on the onramp and backs off a bit to make room to merge safely. We notice the one who doesn't and who makes things as difficult as possible. We don't notice all the people who are patient and polite to cash register operators or the people who are careful to keep their shopping carts from blocking the aisle. We notice the ones who don't.

I'm not sure the society is a lot more uncivil than it used to be. I'm not sure it isn't, either. I am sure that it's up to me to be civil in all of those situations, if I expect others to do the same. So, that's what I try to do. I don't always succeed, I'm sure, but I do try.

Butterbean (225 posts)   Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:14 PM

21. I think part of it can be contributed to increased use of electronic devices for communicating instead of face to face. E.g., people rely increasingly on communication via text, email, and online forums, and people get really really brave behind a keyboard and say things they wouldn't normally say outloud to another human being. Over time, those filters that are lost/absent in online communication translate to filters being lost/absent in face to face communication, and people forget how to be polite.

I notice it all the time, if you speak more kindly and exercise more restraint (e.g., not verbally ripping someone a new asshole every time they deviate even a millimeter from your definition of "right," but instead discussing the points of view with civility and respect), that tends to translate into how you act in real life. If you go around ripping off the heads and shitting down the necks of anyone who dares disagree with you online, eventually you'll start exhibiting the same behavior (verbally) face to face.

KansDem (23,081 posts)   Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:48 PM

29. I think it started with the "put down" that marked 1970s TV sitcoms.

If you remember the 1950s, TV shows were about family life with kids getting into "trouble" and a wise parent helping them. When you think about it, "Leave It to Beaver" was a weekly portrayal of the Faust legend: Beav enters into questionable "contract" with Gilbert, Larry, or Lumpy, because of his want for instant pleasures, then realizes his error and with the help of Ward, learns a lesson and finds redemption.

Then the 1960s we had the "goofy" TV shows, like "F Troop," "Beverly Hillbillies," "Green Acres," etc. There was usually one sane person among the zanies.

But in the 1970s we saw the cultivation of the "putdown." Inspired perhaps by Don Rickles "hockey-puck" humor, shows like "All in the Family," "May Tyler Moore" and "M*A*S*H" had casts of reasonably sane characters with one doofus. "Archie Bunker," "Ted Baxter" and "Frank Burns" became the butt of ridicule and the target of the "put down."

Then we had the "filmed before a live audience" shows where the characters hurled insults at each other while the audience laughed hysterically and applauded approval.

I don't know much about TV shows toward the end of the 1970s as I had taken a evening job and lost track of prime-time sitcoms, but I believe, if I recall correctly, that Rush Limbaugh got his start in the early 1980s. And it all went downhill from there...

Bluenorthwest (21,057 posts)   Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:54 PM

40. I don't agree with your notion that incivility is new or increasing....

In the past, your community would have people like me thrown in jail and I never saw that as civil. I can understand how YOU might miss the impact of such past laws against minorities, but bud, it was not civil in your dreamy past. Never was there such a day as you claim there was. The present you live in sounds bad, the past you describe shounds like fantasy.

Perhaps you need to move? Where do you live? Some areas are not as kind as others, that much is a fact. People chat nicely in lines here.

Stinky The Clown (47,534 posts)   Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:00 PM

41. Wow. You're quite angry. And, it seems, angry with me.

[Ogre]

Wow, the DUmmies must be slipping, I didn't see one blame it on Bush.

[Ogre]

I stand corrected, all is right in the world.  The master slacker blamed it on Bush.

[chitownchica]

BlueNorthwest is the Bobbolink of teh gheys.

[AllosaursRus]

Nice to see the DUmmies admit they identify with Frank Burns, and Archie Bunker. Can't think of two other persona's that mimic their attitudes and beliefs.

[Ballygrl]

I blame the Democrat Party, their purpose seems to be riling up their base by making them paranoid about everything:

Tigress DEM (6,366 posts)
61. We are on the verge of Civil War because one side has been cheating and oppressing the other.

Of course rethugs see themselves as the victims even though their $$$$ are purchasing the means of oppression and we DEMs won't accept victimhood without a fight.

rethugs have been hanging Obama in effigy since before he was elected.

Police are violating our rights to reasonable assembly and against unreasonable search and seizure. They are racially profiling and beating blacks and others for no valid reasons.

Kids are killing their families or walking into schools and shooting random people to vent their rage because their teachers and families are working hard to even retain the right to educate our children and it takes more than one income to keep families off the street.

People are shooting elected officials and anyone in their path based on Palin's advise to never retreat, only reload.

HOW DID WE GET HERE? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

You are upset that we are uncivil?

WHENEVER ANY AMERICAN'S LIBERTIES ARE IMPERILED - SO ARE MINE. Can you see the peril of our civil liberties under Robme, Mr More Money for the 1% and to Hell with the rest of you?

You call it uncivil to say that someone lies, I call it honesty and HIGH TIME FOR IT.

BUT....

BUT....

IT'S ALSO a path we can't fully trod. It's one thing to call the liars out and confront them and make sure they DON'T get elected. But it's another thing to get so fully frenzied that we want to slash and burn our oppressors, even if it only is on the verbal or fictional level. Because once fully on that path, we lose site of the REAL GOALS.

WE NEED TO FOCUS MORE ON OUR TRUE DEMOCRATIC GOALS and what we BELIEVE AMERICA CAN BE AGAIN, rather than on the disaster it has become. WE have to FIGHT HARDER and MORE PEACEABLY THAN EVER BEFORE to achieve our real goals.

WORK FOR: Voter Rights, fight against/prevent voter suppression.

WORK FOR: Election Integrity, fight against/prevent stolen elections.

WORK FOR: Campaign Finance Reform, fight against/prevent corporate take over of America.

WORK FOR: Union Rights, Worker Rights and Civil Liberties, fight against/prevent oppression of people everywhere.

WORK FOR: MADE IN AMERICA, fight against/prevent unfair trade practices.

WORK FOR: Separation of Church and State, fight against those who would combine the two.

WORK FOR: Reasonable Taxation and using the money wisely:
.............................To create a flourishing Common Wealth for everyone to share in and benefit from.
.............................To restore our infrastructure and improve/upgrade our power grid.
.............................To support small and large businesses within reasonable limits.
.............................To get our healthcare situation successfully resolved for everyone.
.............................To address the real danger of Global Warming/Climate Change.

WORK FOR: A DEPARTMENT of PEACE that is effective and MORE BUSY than our WAR Department 99% of the time.

Anyway, just a few thots.

[Chris_]

What an adorable little rant.

[Jasonw560]

KansDem (23,081 posts)   Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:48 PM

29. I think it started with the "put down" that marked 1970s TV sitcoms.

If you remember the 1950s, TV shows were about family life with kids getting into "trouble" and a wise parent helping them. When you think about it, "Leave It to Beaver" was a weekly portrayal of the Faust legend: Beav enters into questionable "contract" with Gilbert, Larry, or Lumpy, because of his want for instant pleasures, then realizes his error and with the help of Ward, learns a lesson and finds redemption.

Then the 1960s we had the "goofy" TV shows, like "F Troop," "Beverly Hillbillies," "Green Acres," etc. There was usually one sane person among the zanies.

But in the 1970s we saw the cultivation of the "putdown." Inspired perhaps by Don Rickles "hockey-puck" humor, shows like "All in the Family," "May Tyler Moore" and "M*A*S*H" had casts of reasonably sane characters with one doofus. "Archie Bunker," "Ted Baxter" and "Frank Burns" became the butt of ridicule and the target of the "put down."

Then we had the "filmed before a live audience" shows where the characters hurled insults at each other while the audience laughed hysterically and applauded approval.

I don't know much about TV shows toward the end of the 1970s as I had taken a evening job and lost track of prime-time sitcoms, but I believe, if I recall correctly, that Rush Limbaugh got his start in the early 1980s. And it all went downhill from there...

This DUmmie is on to something, but doesn't know it. See, the hippie type libs that started taking over TV, movies, and music came into their own in the late 60's and early 70's. That's when the shows started getting more of a cynnical twist to them. Even though socialists in Hollywood have been around since the 20's, the whole town started getting more of that feel then.

They started taking things over, and look what we have now.

BTW, DUmmie, Rush went national in 1988. Not early 80's.

[AllosaursRus]

What an adorable little rant.

I agree it was a rant, but don't think adorable is the word I would use to describe the POS.

Tigress DEM (6,366 posts)
61. We are on the verge of Civil War because one side has been cheating and oppressing the other.

Of course rethugs see themselves as the victims even though their $$$$ are purchasing the means of oppression and we DEMs won't accept victimhood without a fight.

Yer kiddin' me right? You people are the definition of victim! Romney wasn't bull shittin' when he spoke of the 47%. How many of those are DemonRat ya think, DUmbass?

[USA4ME]

Notice none of the primitives point the blame at themselves and the way they view the world?  Yeah, me too.

.

[franksolich]

Notice none of the primitives point the blame at themselves and the way they view the world?  Yeah, me too.

Well, franksolich has always been kinder to the sparkling old dude than what the sparkling old dude deserved, and look where it got me.

<<will soon quit being kind to the sparkling old dude, and treat him rudely.

[BattleHymn]

Families and neighbors are doubling up living quarters and helping each other economically

Bush's fault

[Tucker]

Stinky The Clown (47,534 posts)    Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:32 PM

What do you think accounts for the rise in incivility?

The spread of the disease called liberalism

That rise is evident everywhere.

Stand in the grocery line and you'll hear people being rude, often to the cashiers, but also to each other.

You believe the bouncies mentioned at the DUmp. Here's a tip. They're lies.

Look at the weekly magazines and newspapers. Front page incivility.

The liberal media trying to make decent and civilized people look bad.

The movies and teevee shows, where incivility is celebrated.

Too many queer/bull dyke characters conveying immoral deeds.

Think of your own driving habits. You yelling at other drivers. Other drivers flipping you off. Incivility abounds. They ought to report that on the Traffic On The Eights segments.

Nope. I carry a gun. An armed society is a polite society.

In politics, you see incivility raised to a fine art. Institutionalized meanness. Self control is seen as a weakness. Just blurt it out. "You Lie!" The term "My Friend" said with the venomous inflection we can safely assume was learned from a rattlesnake.

obama is a liar. Just calling a spade a spade.

Look at the internet. Blogs that take distinct sides and, lacking the ability to have face to face encounters, raise the temperature of the rhetoric to levels that, in polite society, could land one in front of judge, charge with threat to do bodily harm.

He-He. That means that We are doing our job.

We are all guilty of this. All of us. All sides of all issues represented by incivility.

Where did it come from?

Liberal intolerance.

I have no doubt many will consider this and point to someone else.

It's the DUmmy way.

Probably loudly.

Well, DUmmies are attention ho's

With a glare.

That's a drug induced stare.

Or a sneer.

Yup.

How did we get here? And when?

The DNC gave skimmer the start up  money in 2001

[Ogre]

Well, franksolich has always been kinder to the sparkling old dude than what the sparkling old dude deserved, and look where it got me.

As the saying goes, "no good deed goes unpunsihed".

[MoshMasterD]

I blame the Democrat Party, their purpose seems to be riling up their base by making them paranoid about everything:

add this.....

Great Caesars Ghost (268 posts)
116. There is no verge. Civil war is inevitable!

View profile
And I personally am prepared and well fortified when such an event happens.

[AllosaursRus]

Great Caesars Ghost (268 posts)
116. There is no verge. Civil war is inevitable!

View profile
And I personally am prepared and well fortified when such an event happens.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! I'm shakin' in my boots, DUmbass!

[Ogre]

I don't understand why the DUmmies so desperately want a civil war, or any war for that matter.

There aren't any winners, you only have the defeated, the dead, and the survivors. 

Trust me, no one "wins", that shit is with you for the rest of your life.

[Boudicca]

Well, franksolich has always been kinder to the sparkling old dude than what the sparkling old dude deserved, and look where it got me.

<<will soon quit being kind to the sparkling old dude, and treat him rudely.

You gonna get him a farewell present?  I just bought some super deluxe cat litter boxes for my crew, and it's doubtful his less smelly half has shelled out the big bucks for any but the most primitive of boxes.

[AllosaursRus]

You gonna get him a farewell present?  I just bought some super deluxe cat litter boxes for my crew, and it's doubtful his less smelly half has shelled out the big bucks for any but the most primitive of boxes.

Have ya seen the new one they're advertisin'? The Genie or some shit like that is it's name, I think. Has a cat talkin' about how disgusting it is to empty his box.

[Boudicca]

Have ya seen the new one they're advertisin'? The Genie or some shit like that is it's name, I think. Has a cat talkin' about how disgusting it is to empty his box.

  Nah, I just bought a few really huge, high sided boxes.  With eight cats, and a hubby who refuses to have more than 2 boxes out, I decided I was tired of scooping litter 4 times a day or more.  At least they are all really good about using the boxes, and we don't have a basement.  So, I don't have to live with them downstairs.

[AllosaursRus]

Nah, I just bought a few really huge, high sided boxes.  With eight cats, and a hubby who refuses to have more than 2 boxes out, I decided I was tired of scooping litter 4 times a day or more.  At least they are all really good about using the boxes, and we don't have a basement.  So, I don't have to live with them downstairs.

I guess this one is more for the storage of, er, what's dropped in the box, other than somethin' the kitty actually uses. Apparently, ya scoop the poop and it has some kind of flap that keeps the, shall we say the odorous kitty piles, behind a flap. So every time ya clean the litter box, ya can just keep it in one bag.

[Boudicca]

I guess this one is more for the storage of, er, what's dropped in the box, other than somethin' the kitty actually uses. Apparently, ya scoop the poop and it has some kind of flap that keeps the, shall we say the odorous kitty piles, behind a flap. So every time ya clean the litter box, ya can just keep it in one bag.

I'm thinking if I brought one of those home it'd give new meaning to the term logjam.

[AllosaursRus]

I'm thinking if I brought one of those home it'd give new meaning to the term logjam.

Yeah, but the commercial is cute as hell! My cats take a dump outside, so I don't worry about it.