Author Topic: The draft  (Read 22214 times)

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Offline dandi

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Re: The draft
« Reply #175 on: January 14, 2010, 03:49:24 PM »
Just so I get this straight, you're claiming that government in a free society is not a resource to humans.

What I said, very clearly, was that a government is a means and a vehicle of enforcement of laws.  If you wish to call that a "resource", then by all means do.

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In fact, it's the other way around: humans are nothing more than disposable resources to their government.  Does that even deserve a response?

That is so far off from my point that I'm wondering if you deserve a response.  In a case of dire national emergency, survival of not only the government but also the individual is paramount.  If the government (vehicle of laws and enforcement) does not survive, neither will individual rights.  In a free society, it's a symbiotic relationship, Chump.

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Or rather, attempting to illustrate the difference between the two examples...

You are a resource to your employer, nothing else.  If you lose your value to your employer, you are gone.  I was a resource to the US Navy.  When I hit the upper limit of my rank and years of service, I was considered to be no longer of value and was retired.

We are resources, Chump.  You can tell yourself whatever you like, but in the end we are resources and that is just reality.


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Laws and government do not grant or give rights, period.  Again, I don't see how I can elaborate.

They don't?  Try breaking some and see how much of your "individual rights" you retain. 

But, you completely missed my point.  Means and a vehicle for enforcement of laws, see above.  If you don't understand what you are reading, then you can't elaborate.  I'm not an English Major, Chump, and I write in very clear and concise language.

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Then you're missing the painfully obvious point that if one person's right to liberty can be negated (or expensed) to preserve another's right to life, then the latter person in the example is having his personal rights elevated by definition, as rights cannot exist at the expense of another's.  Making the recipients of some "benefit" derived from negating one person's right to liberty more numerous doesn't make it any less evil or more moral.  Individual rights are just that: individual.

No, Chump, I got your point ad nauseum.  You are missing the painfully obvious point that if the goverment does not survive and/or is denied the tools for survival, then your "individual rights" will not exist. 

Period.

Not that complicated.

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What??  If I want to survive when my life is in imminent danger, I have absolutely zero right to grab you by the scruff of the neck and throw you between myself and my attacker.  From your own argument, the government has no right to compel anyone to dispose of their right to life.

Apples and oranges, Chump.  A mugger and an invading army are two completely different things.  As has been pointed out to you, you are arguing from a perspective of ignorance.

And, again, what you are inferring is not what I said.

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Fair enough.  I feel free to say that your position on conscription during a dire national emergency smacks of sniveling statism and the idea that the government must exist at all costs.

And if our goverment disappears, Chump, what then?  To whom will you whine about your "individual rights"?  What means and vehicle of enforcement will you have to ensure that they still exist? 

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Just remember, when the next dire national emergency comes rolling along (and it's coming, look to the bond market) then your rights are meaningless.

Cute.

Let me give you some perspective.  I am currently on Fleet Reserve.  What that means is that I am subject to recall until 2017.  If the shit hits the fan, and I get called to be "grabbed by the scruff of the neck and thrown in front of your attacker", I will pack up my uniforms and report to my assigned place of duty. 

More simply put, I will be a resource to stand the line in case of a dire national emergency.  Whether I have a choice in the matter or not. 

Why, you may ask?  Simply because the preservation of our way (that includes you, and everyone else) of life far outweighs whatever claim I have to my individual "right to life".  You have never served, are unwilling to learn from those that have, and will probably never know.  That's what I mean, Chump, when I say that you are arguing from a perspective of ignorance.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 03:51:16 PM by wasp69 »
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Offline Thor

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Re: The draft
« Reply #176 on: January 14, 2010, 04:02:36 PM »
Seems to me that Chump would be one of those draft dodgers that fled to Canada or elsewhere in order to avoid military service. Callin' it as I see it, Chump.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: The draft
« Reply #177 on: January 14, 2010, 04:52:32 PM »
I feel free to say that your position on conscription during a dire national emergency smacks of sniveling statism and the idea that the government must exist at all costs.

It was the intent of our founding fathers and authors of the Constitution that the Union be preserved at all costs:

The Necessity of a Government as Energetic as the One Proposed to the Preservation of the Union
From the New York Packet.
Tuesday, December 18, 1787.
HAMILTON

To the People of the State of New York:

THE necessity of a Constitution, at least equally energetic with the one proposed, to the preservation of the Union, is the point at the examination of which we are now arrived.

This inquiry will naturally divide itself into three branches the objects to be provided for by the federal government, the quantity of power necessary to the accomplishment of those objects, the persons upon whom that power ought to operate. Its distribution and organization will more properly claim our attention under the succeeding head.

The principal purposes to be answered by union are these the common defense of the members; the preservation of the public peace as well against internal convulsions as external attacks; the regulation of commerce with other nations and between the States; the superintendence of our intercourse, political and commercial, with foreign countries.

The authorities essential to the common defense are these: to raise armies; to build and equip fleets; to prescribe rules for the government of both; to direct their operations; to provide for their support. These powers ought to exist without limitation, BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FORESEE OR DEFINE THE EXTENT AND VARIETY OF NATIONAL EXIGENCIES, OR THE CORRESPONDENT EXTENT AND VARIETY OF THE MEANS WHICH MAY BE NECESSARY TO SATISFY THEM. The circumstances that endanger the safety of nations are infinite, and for this reason no constitutional shackles can wisely be imposed on the power to which the care of it is committed. This power ought to be coextensive with all the possible combinations of such circumstances; and ought to be under the direction of the same councils which are appointed to preside over the common defense.

This is one of those truths which, to a correct and unprejudiced mind, carries its own evidence along with it; and may be obscured, but cannot be made plainer by argument or reasoning. It rests upon axioms as simple as they are universal; the MEANS ought to be proportioned to the END; the persons, from whose agency the attainment of any END is expected, ought to possess the MEANS by which it is to be attained.

Whether there ought to be a federal government intrusted with the care of the common defense, is a question in the first instance, open for discussion; but the moment it is decided in the affirmative, it will follow, that that government ought to be clothed with all the powers requisite to complete execution of its trust. And unless it can be shown that the circumstances which may affect the public safety are reducible within certain determinate limits; unless the contrary of this position can be fairly and rationally disputed, it must be admitted, as a necessary consequence, that there can be no limitation of that authority which is to provide for the defense and protection of the community, in any matter essential to its efficacy that is, in any matter essential to the FORMATION, DIRECTION, or SUPPORT of the NATIONAL FORCES.

Defective as the present Confederation has been proved to be, this principle appears to have been fully recognized by the framers of it; though they have not made proper or adequate provision for its exercise. Congress have an unlimited discretion to make requisitions of men and money; to govern the army and navy; to direct their operations. As their requisitions are made constitutionally binding upon the States, who are in fact under the most solemn obligations to furnish the supplies required of them, the intention evidently was that the United States should command whatever resources were by them judged requisite to the ``common defense and general welfare.'' It was presumed that a sense of their true interests, and a regard to the dictates of good faith, would be found sufficient pledges for the punctual performance of the duty of the members to the federal head.

The experiment has, however, demonstrated that this expectation was ill-founded and illusory; and the observations, made under the last head, will, I imagine, have sufficed to convince the impartial and discerning, that there is an absolute necessity for an entire change in the first principles of the system; that if we are in earnest about giving the Union energy and duration, we must abandon the vain project of legislating upon the States in their collective capacities; we must extend the laws of the federal government to the individual citizens of America; we must discard the fallacious scheme of quotas and requisitions, as equally impracticable and unjust. The result from all this is that the Union ought to be invested with full power to levy troops; to build and equip fleets; and to raise the revenues which will be required for the formation and support of an army and navy, in the customary and ordinary modes practiced in other governments.

If the circumstances of our country are such as to demand a compound instead of a simple, a confederate instead of a sole, government, the essential point which will remain to be adjusted will be to discriminate the OBJECTS, as far as it can be done, which shall appertain to the different provinces or departments of power; allowing to each the most ample authority for fulfilling the objects committed to its charge. Shall the Union be constituted the guardian of the common safety? Are fleets and armies and revenues necessary to this purpose? The government of the Union must be empowered to pass all laws, and to make all regulations which have relation to them. The same must be the case in respect to commerce, and to every other matter to which its jurisdiction is permitted to extend. Is the administration of justice between the citizens of the same State the proper department of the local governments? These must possess all the authorities which are connected with this object, and with every other that may be allotted to their particular cognizance and direction. Not to confer in each case a degree of power commensurate to the end, would be to violate the most obvious rules of prudence and propriety, and improvidently to trust the great interests of the nation to hands which are disabled from managing them with vigor and success.

Who is likely to make suitable provisions for the public defense, as that body to which the guardianship of the public safety is confided; which, as the centre of information, will best understand the extent and urgency of the dangers that threaten; as the representative of the WHOLE, will feel itself most deeply interested in the preservation of every part; which, from the responsibility implied in the duty assigned to it, will be most sensibly impressed with the necessity of proper exertions; and which, by the extension of its authority throughout the States, can alone establish uniformity and concert in the plans and measures by which the common safety is to be secured? Is there not a manifest inconsistency in devolving upon the federal government the care of the general defense, and leaving in the State governments the EFFECTIVE powers by which it is to be provided for? Is not a want of co-operation the infallible consequence of such a system? And will not weakness, disorder, an undue distribution of the burdens and calamities of war, an unnecessary and intolerable increase of expense, be its natural and inevitable concomitants? Have we not had unequivocal experience of its effects in the course of the revolution which we have just accomplished?

Every view we may take of the subject, as candid inquirers after truth, will serve to convince us, that it is both unwise and dangerous to deny the federal government an unconfined authority, as to all those objects which are intrusted to its management. It will indeed deserve the most vigilant and careful attention of the people, to see that it be modeled in such a manner as to admit of its being safely vested with the requisite powers. If any plan which has been, or may be, offered to our consideration, should not, upon a dispassionate inspection, be found to answer this description, it ought to be rejected. A government, the constitution of which renders it unfit to be trusted with all the powers which a free people OUGHT TO DELEGATE TO ANY GOVERNMENT, would be an unsafe and improper depositary of the NATIONAL INTERESTS. Wherever THESE can with propriety be confided, the coincident powers may safely accompany them. This is the true result of all just reasoning upon the subject. And the adversaries of the plan promulgated by the convention ought to have confined themselves to showing, that the internal structure of the proposed government was such as to render it unworthy of the confidence of the people. They ought not to have wandered into inflammatory declamations and unmeaning cavils about the extent of the powers. The POWERS are not too extensive for the OBJECTS of federal administration, or, in other words, for the management of our NATIONAL INTERESTS; nor can any satisfactory argument be framed to show that they are chargeable with such an excess. If it be true, as has been insinuated by some of the writers on the other side, that the difficulty arises from the nature of the thing, and that the extent of the country will not permit us to form a government in which such ample powers can safely be reposed, it would prove that we ought to contract our views, and resort to the expedient of separate confederacies, which will move within more practicable spheres. For the absurdity must continually stare us in the face of confiding to a government the direction of the most essential national interests, without daring to trust it to the authorities which are indispensible to their proper and efficient management. Let us not attempt to reconcile contradictions, but firmly embrace a rational alternative.

I trust, however, that the impracticability of one general system cannot be shown. I am greatly mistaken, if any thing of weight has yet been advanced of this tendency; and I flatter myself, that the observations which have been made in the course of these papers have served to place the reverse of that position in as clear a light as any matter still in the womb of time and experience can be susceptible of. This, at all events, must be evident, that the very difficulty itself, drawn from the extent of the country, is the strongest argument in favor of an energetic government; for any other can certainly never preserve the Union of so large an empire. If we embrace the tenets of those who oppose the adoption of the proposed Constitution, as the standard of our political creed, we cannot fail to verify the gloomy doctrines which predict the impracticability of a national system pervading entire limits of the present Confederacy.

http://www.madison-society.org/fed/fed23.html

This is reality.  Long recognized by the founders of our country.   You can babble all day on inherent rights of the individual, however you only need to look to our, and pretty much any other country, to see that those rights are clearly not free -- and for those lucky enough to have it, please note they were only obtained by the ultimate sacrifice of others.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 04:54:25 PM by formerlurker »

Offline Thor

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Re: The draft
« Reply #178 on: January 14, 2010, 05:16:05 PM »
To use some bumper sticker logic, "Freedom isn't FREE"...........

Or; "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Vet"....
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Offline Chump

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Re: The draft
« Reply #179 on: January 15, 2010, 07:59:36 AM »
Seems to me that Chump would be one of those draft dodgers that fled to Canada or elsewhere in order to avoid military service. Callin' it as I see it, Chump.

That's fine.  I've already said I'm disgusted with the tripe I've seen passed off as logical thought here.

Just remember folks, there's a reason people like Rahm Emanuel insist on "not wasting a good crisis."  Combine great need with the urgency of the moment, ask people to bend to "reality," and you can force even the most principled person to abandon those principles.  Just remember, you're arguing in the same manner.

As to my opinion on serving or not, or its worth, or waging war in general: go back and re-read.  Whether or not I want to serve is not the topic.  Government compulsion is.  Resorting to personal attacks, whether intended to come across as such or not, only serves to highlight the fact that you have no leg to stand on.
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Offline Chump

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Re: The draft
« Reply #180 on: January 15, 2010, 08:19:22 AM »
What I said, very clearly, was that a government is a means and a vehicle of enforcement of laws.  If you wish to call that a "resource", then by all means do.

That pretty much fits the definition of a resource.

In a case of dire national emergency, survival of not only the government but also the individual is paramount.  If the government (vehicle of laws and enforcement) does not survive, neither will individual rights.  In a free society, it's a symbiotic relationship, Chump.

This of course stems from your belief that rights are derived from the government in the first place.  My individual rights will still exist in your scenario, but they will most likely be threatened at every turn.

You are a resource to your employer, nothing else.  If you lose your value to your employer, you are gone.  I was a resource to the US Navy.  When I hit the upper limit of my rank and years of service, I was considered to be no longer of value and was retired.

We are resources, Chump.  You can tell yourself whatever you like, but in the end we are resources and that is just reality.

You do have to actually argue your point.  You can't just say, "that's reality," and leave it at that.  You and I have both chosen to dispose of our lives as we see fit, and in doing so we make ourselves useful to our respective employers.  From the point of view of our employers, we are of course resources.  It does not logically follow that, therefore, humans are resources to their governments.  Keep trying.

But, you completely missed my point.  Means and a vehicle for enforcement of laws, see above.  If you don't understand what you are reading, then you can't elaborate.  I'm not an English Major, Chump, and I write in very clear and concise language.

Where do you think rights originate?  You said that laws and governments are the source of rights.  When I told you you're wrong, you said I missed the point.  I'm well aware of how laws and government protect individual rights.  I'm not clear on how laws and government provide them in the first place, so enlighten me.

No, Chump, I got your point ad nauseum.  You are missing the painfully obvious point that if the goverment does not survive and/or is denied the tools for survival, then your "individual rights" will not exist. 

Period.

Not that complicated.

Refer to above, they certainly will.

Apples and oranges, Chump.  A mugger and an invading army are two completely different things.  As has been pointed out to you, you are arguing from a perspective of ignorance.

And, again, what you are inferring is not what I said.

I'm not the one that made the comparison in the first place.  If the government has the same means for survival as I do, then compulsion is not one of them.

And if our goverment disappears, Chump, what then?  To whom will you whine about your "individual rights"?  What means and vehicle of enforcement will you have to ensure that they still exist? 

Don't worry, I'd be doing very little whining.  I'd most likely be busy defending myself from roaming gangs and trying to survive.  Maybe instead I should be like you, abandon any and all principles, and cry that any action the government takes is OK so long as my "precious rights" are protected.  Hopefully the illogical disconnect in that very statement wouldn't bring about an aneurysm.

Let me give you some perspective.  I am currently on Fleet Reserve.  What that means is that I am subject to recall until 2017.  If the shit hits the fan, and I get called to be "grabbed by the scruff of the neck and thrown in front of your attacker", I will pack up my uniforms and report to my assigned place of duty. 

More simply put, I will be a resource to stand the line in case of a dire national emergency.  Whether I have a choice in the matter or not. 

Why, you may ask?  Simply because the preservation of our way (that includes you, and everyone else) of life far outweighs whatever claim I have to my individual "right to life".  You have never served, are unwilling to learn from those that have, and will probably never know.  That's what I mean, Chump, when I say that you are arguing from a perspective of ignorance.

You willingly contracted to dispose of your life as you see fit.  Claiming you have no choice is lunacy; you already made your choice.  And no, sorry, the preservation of anyone or anything in a free society does not come at the expense of anyone's life or liberty through government compulsion.  Saying, "well you've never served," while factually true, is completely irrelevant. 
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: The draft
« Reply #181 on: January 15, 2010, 08:35:52 AM »
You willingly contracted to dispose of your life as you see fit.  Claiming you have no choice is lunacy; you already made your choice.  And no, sorry, the preservation of anyone or anything in a free society does not come at the expense of anyone's life or liberty through government compulsion.  Saying, "well you've never served," while factually true, is completely irrelevant. 

Your discussion on inherent rights of the individual does not have a place in this world (of reality) -- there has been no country to date whose residents enjoy such a utopia of individual freedom.    The United States of America is certainly not such a place, nor was it ever the intent of our founding fathers and authors of our Constitution. 

Save your pennies.  Buy an island.  Have at it.  Until then you are subject to the draft.  Such is life. 


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Re: The draft
« Reply #182 on: January 15, 2010, 09:06:43 AM »
Just remember folks, there's a reason people like Rahm Emanuel insist on "not wasting a good crisis."  Combine great need with the urgency of the moment, ask people to bend to "reality," and you can force even the most principled person to abandon those principles.  Just remember, you're arguing in the same manner.
Abuse does not abolish the use.

Tyrants will always abuse what is good or necessary for self-serving ends but that doesn't mean we deprive ourselves of what is good and/or necessary. Junkies should not be used as an argument for the abolition of pain management therapies.

But your analogy fails because Emmanuel is not the sole head of state. It would take an act of congress to impose such a thing and right now congress cannot even succeed on something as "benign" as healthcare because the people have resoundingly rejected the schemes of the power-hungry.

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As to my opinion on serving or not, or its worth, or waging war in general: go back and re-read.  Whether or not I want to serve is not the topic.  Government compulsion is.  Resorting to personal attacks, whether intended to come across as such or not, only serves to highlight the fact that you have no leg to stand on.

One of my complaints with many aspects of "libertarian" doctrine is that in their quest to say what ought or ought not be done in the name of liberty they confine liberty. They quickly label everything a matter of "rights" so as to exclude all further debate on a subject just as the liberals label everything racist, sexist or homophobic. When everything is labeled a "right" then the genuine right to self-government and public discourse suffers. Libertarians simply have better PR management skills.

I'm not saying this is you but when someone says, "Drugs are a right. Prostitution is a right. Sexual deviancy is a right. Marriage is a right." what they are really saying is, "You have no right to debate policies on how society shall be shaped and governed and you shall not have the right to vote on any so-designated topic."

Our nation is first and foremost a government that governs by the consent of the governed. If those who are governed see a national existential threat of such proportions that they--either by petition or willing consent--accede to the imposition of conscription then that is the will of the governed. To deny them this right is to claim they do not have the wits sufficient to govern themselves.

No government has any legitimacy unless it acts--not only in accordance to the will of the people--but for the sole purpose of defending the people from force and compulsion. If the people deem the only remedy to a given threat is the establishment of conscription then so be it.

IN PRACTICAL TERMS:

In a large enough war conscription allows for the orderly induction of mass amounts of troops. In a peacetime of middle-to-low intensity conflict it serves no practical purpose; only to dilute the overall quality of troops.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: The draft
« Reply #183 on: January 15, 2010, 10:34:29 AM »
MSB:
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In a large enough war conscription allows for the orderly induction of mass amounts of troops. In a peacetime of middle-to-low intensity conflict it serves no practical purpose; only to dilute the overall quality of troops.

This is correct as I see it. Operative word there is "orderly induction" when/if those troops are needed. Since "mass amounts of troops" is somewhat subjective, it stands to reason that the tool that is conscription is to be used only when and if it's needed.

Not likely in this day and age, even with multiple deployments.
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Offline dandi

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Re: The draft
« Reply #184 on: January 15, 2010, 01:19:12 PM »
That's fine.  I've already said I'm disgusted with the tripe I've seen passed off as logical thought here.

You've been given reasoned and thoughtful arguments from people who actually have the perspective you lack, given the words of the very men who founded this country and wrote the very documents that guarantee your individual rights, and you still don't get it. 

If after what you have been given, your position is that it's "tripe", then what are we to conclude? 

Personally, I think that you are deep in love with your own "voice" on this forum and that is definitely a trait of someone who serves only themselves.

Quote
Just remember folks, there's a reason people like Rahm Emanuel insist on "not wasting a good crisis."  Combine great need with the urgency of the moment, ask people to bend to "reality," and you can force even the most principled person to abandon those principles.  Just remember, you're arguing in the same manner.

And the founding fathers as well?  Are they little Emanuels?

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Resorting to personal attacks, whether intended to come across as such or not, only serves to highlight the fact that you have no leg to stand on.

Again, how old are you, Chump?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 01:54:49 PM by wasp69 »
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Offline Thor

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Re: The draft
« Reply #185 on: January 15, 2010, 01:30:52 PM »
My guess would be that were I President, he'd REALLY have a problem with me. I believe in mandatory conscription.  :o   
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Offline dandi

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Re: The draft
« Reply #186 on: January 15, 2010, 01:51:43 PM »
That pretty much fits the definition of a resource.

Fine, it's a "resource".

Quote
This of course stems from your belief that rights are derived from the government in the first place.

Chump, I am beginning to believe that you are either purposefully obtuse and cannot stand to lose an argument or you truly have a reading comprehension.  I have stated, very clearly on multiple posts, that goverment is nothing more than than a means and a vehicle to enforce laws.  A "resource", as it were.  My rights are derived from my natural state and God Almighty, as stated by our founding fathers.  The very ones that you called "tripe".

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My individual rights will still exist in your scenario, but they will most likely be threatened at every turn.

Wrong.  They will not exist at all.  You will exercise whatever "rights" our conquerers decide that they wish to bestow upon the vanquished.  Historically, it's not very many.

Again, you argue from a position of ignorance.

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You and I have both chosen to dispose of our lives as we see fit, and in doing so we make ourselves useful to our respective employers.  From the point of view of our employers, we are of course resources.  It does not logically follow that, therefore, humans are resources to their governments.  Keep trying.

So to our employers, we are essentially tools, but when it comes to the survival of our way of life and our means of propagating it, we aren't?

Really?

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Where do you think rights originate?  You said that laws and governments are the source of rights.  When I told you you're wrong, you said I missed the point.

Government is a means and a vehicle of enforcement of laws.  Within that enforcement of laws is the guarantee of individual rights.  That way of government comes from (in the US) the consent of the governed.

Now it's been said a fourth time. 

Yes, you missed my point repeatedly.

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I'm well aware of how laws and government protect individual rights.  I'm not clear on how laws and government provide them in the first place, so enlighten me.

Well, I (and many others on just this thread alone) have tried, but you are not listening.  Enlighten you?  Reread.

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Refer to above, they certainly will.

Read some historical accounts of the conquered and try that again.

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I'm not the one that made the comparison in the first place.  If the government has the same means for survival as I do, then compulsion is not one of them.

How does it feel to be placed at such odds with the very men and documents that you hold so dear?

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Don't worry, I'd be doing very little whining.  I'd most likely be busy defending myself from roaming gangs and trying to survive.  Maybe instead I should be like you, abandon any and all principles, and cry that any action the government takes is OK so long as my "precious rights" are protected.  Hopefully the illogical disconnect in that very statement wouldn't bring about an aneurysm.

Honestly, speaking as someone who spent their life in service to you and everyone else in this country, I would rather you stand on your porch, suck your thumb, and stay out of the way if your position is that sacrisanct.  As a leader, I would have enough problems getting the conscripts that didn't opt out ready to face contact and survive.

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You willingly contracted to dispose of your life as you see fit.

I most certainly did.  Of my free will.

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Claiming you have no choice is lunacy; you already made your choice.

Do you think that being compulsed to return to active duty after retirement is somehow different? 

Perspective, ignorance, etcetera....

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And no, sorry, the preservation of anyone or anything in a free society does not come at the expense of anyone's life or liberty through government compulsion. 

A lot of good men who were put in the ground to ensure your right to live in comfort and post your thoughts would disagree.

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Saying, "well you've never served," while factually true, is completely irrelevant. 

No, Chump, it is completely relevant.  It gives those who have a much better and informed perspective.  Anyone who is so proud to the point of not being able to even consider the wisdom gained from such people is foolish.
I don't want...anybody else
When I think about me I touch myself