Author Topic: the conundrum  (Read 3682 times)

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Offline franksolich

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the conundrum
« on: November 23, 2008, 08:53:20 PM »
I've been looking around for something, because I'm fascinated by a certain phenomenon; it appears that belief in the theory of evolution declines alongside the decline of influence of religion in life.

In theory, the more a society is secularized, the more pervasive would be belief in the theory of evolution.

Right?

I mean, as a society "enlightens," replacing religious emotionaniacs with calm reasonable rational people, surely belief in the theory of evolution would be strengthened.

Right?

Well, apparently not, and it's all a mystery to me.

As we already know from the English, the most secular western society (less than 2% of the population attending church, or formally affiliated with a church), belief in the theory of evolution has declined considerably, to where now almost two-thirds of the calm reasonable rational non-religious Englishmen express much skepticism about the theory of evolution.

That appears to hold true for Norway and Sweden, too; two other places where the influence of religion has declined precipitiously the last three generations......accompanied by a corresponding decrease in those who believe in the theory of evolution.

It's all very mysterious.

I thought I would check out the ideal secular society, the purely scientific society, the society that embraces pure reason, but there isn't a whole lot of material on the internet about what Albanians think.

In case one didn't know, Albania from 1945 until 1990, was the rigidly Godless state.

No God at all in Albania; only scientific reasoning.

Well, it's been very difficult, as Albania isn't a popular theme on the internet, but I think I'm getting closer to learning that, yep, as religion died there, so too died belief in the theory of evolution.

I can't find numbers, but it appears that among Albanians, raised in a purely scientific state, have serious doubts about this scientific theory of evolution.

http://www.albanian.com/community/vbl/showthread.php?t=5818

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#1    01-27-2006 
kavajes1 
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A ka zot?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kjo pyetje po me vinte sot ne mendje. Dhe arrita ne konkluzionin qe krijuesi i gjithe gjerave eshte Zoti i madheruar. Prandaj me sa di une duhet te kete zot.

Cfare esht mendimi juaj per kete arsy?

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#2    01-27-2006 
K-man_ 
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njerzit krejt gjanat qe sot i kemi edhe egzistojne i kan kriju e jo zoti. Zoti natyren e ka fal edhe intelegjencen e secilit prej nesh; dikush din ma shume, dikush ma pak, e dikush hiq

Fortunately, the Albanians get around to using English.
 
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#8     01-27-2006
Erwald 
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what a moron...i dont have to listen what neuton or einstein believe for god...if u have a lil brain u'll understand that there is no god...

but u can name god the creation, the meaning of life...we the humans are just like the rest of the animals, just with a improoved brain but not special. we had dinosaurs before us, so many things hapened so we can talk right now.

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#9    01-27-2006 
kavajes1 
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Okay, prove to me there is no god.

A ka Zot?

Ka.

Prove to me Im wrong since I am a moron and all.

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#12    01-27-2006 
kavajes1 
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but u can name god the creation, the meaning of life...we the humans are just like the rest of the animals, just with a improoved brain but not special. we had dinosaurs before us, so many things hapened so we can talk right now.

Recent developments in 'science' completely disprove the theory of evolution my friend. Recent developments in science completely disprove the theory of evolution. The only reason Darwinism is still foisted on people by means of a worldwide propaganda campaign lies in the ideological aspects of the theory.

Darwin's theory of evolution maintained that all living beings emerged as a result of chance and thus denied Creation. Yet the forthcoming evidence was proved to be otherwise. Different branches of science like biochemistry, genetics, and palaeontology have demonstrated that the claims that life originated as a result of "coincidences" is deceptive.

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#18     01-28-2006
MzHeArTLeSSss
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Erwald how do you think you were born? how were your parents born? who created your grandfather & grandmother? and who crated your great gand parents and your ancestors (That you always seem to go on about) ?

Where did they all come from?  and dont say tress or animals or eggs or even fish because where did that all come from?

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#20     01-28-2006
kavajes1
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Darwin himself said: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

Guess what? Something as simple as the human EYE has absolutely broken down his theory :lol:

The progress of science makes it clear that living beings have an extremely complex structure and an order too perfect to have come into being by coincidence. This is evidence to the fact that living beings are created by an All-Powerful Creator with superior knowledge.

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#22     01-28-2006
Erwald
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mz: i have facts ...now we know how from monkey shape faces became human like we are now...and u'll tell me why is the universe? no one cant explain that because simply we have a lil brain to have a clue...

our world is planet earth and we have so many things to learn, but we'll never descover the "why" for example can ur mind describe and endless universe? noo no one can do that.

so better stick to the things we know for sure, and leave god, u all sound like medieval people...dont tell me earth is still flat... :lol:

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#23     01-28-2006
MzHeArTLeSSss
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Ok Erwald. :lol:

1. If we had the answers to everything this world has to offer and what this world is today we would have no point in living. Life is to learn, Life is a test. If you do not belive and have faith in God, you are then left with abnormal answers like the answers you provided us with everyday Erwald.

2. Who do you think created monkeys? If you think humans became humans because of monkeys, then where did the monkeys come from?

3. Our minds were not created to know what a endless universe is but our minds are made to learn the truth behind the creation of the universe.

One of the most important balances in our planet is revealed in the atmosphere that surrounds us. The atmosphere of the earth holds the most appropriate gasses in the most appropriate ratio needed for the survival not only of human beings, but also of all the living beings on the earth.

The 77% of nitrogen, 21% of oxygen and 1% of carbon dioxide as well as other gasses readily available in the atmosphere represent the ideal figures necessary for the survival of living beings. Oxygen, a gas that is vital for living beings, helps food to be burned and converted into energy in our bodies.

If the oxygen quantity in the atmosphere were greater than 21%, the cells in our body would soon start to suffer great damages. The vegetation and hydrocarbon molecules needed for life would also be destroyed. If this quantity were less, then this would cause difficulties in our respiration, and the food we eat would not be converted into energy. Therefore, the 21% of oxygen in the atmosphere is the most ideal quantity determined for life.

Let me guess, Erwald you think this is the work of a monkey?

It's a pretty lengthy debate, and most of it's in Albanian, Montenegrin, Tosk, and Ghegish, so never mind.  There's some more in English, but the web-site's damnedably hard to copy-and-paste, so never mind again.

Anyway, if I was an evolution enthusiast, I'd worry.

These are obviously younger Albanians, who grew up wholly in an entirely Godless state, a state where atheism was the law.  (For the record, Albania was even more rigid about this, than had been the old Soviet Union, and is at present China.)

So how come they're rejecting rational scientific thought?

What happened?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2008, 09:26:45 PM »
Man and God appear to be farther apart than ever before, so who moved, man or God?

A lack of religion does not equal a lack of God anywhere. 
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Offline franksolich

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2008, 09:38:28 PM »
Man and God appear to be farther apart than ever before, so who moved, man or God?

A lack of religion does not equal a lack of God anywhere. 


Uh-huh.

You know, sir, I'm having a great deal of fun with this, as it considerably discombobulates evolution enthusiasts.

As you already know, I have no problem with the theory of evolution, but for your usual standard run-of-the-mill Roman Catholic, of the ten million most important things one should wonder about, the origin of mankind would rank something like 9,876,233rd in importance.

However, I do have problems with people allegedly "rational," for whom there is no god but Reason, and one shall not have any other gods before them but Reason.

Arrogant pompous intolerant narrow-minded asses, the Reasonists.

And so when there's egg to throw in their faces, it's all good.

In response to your question about "who moved," God has always been God, God will always be God.

It's the fate of mankind to wander around in confusion and disarray and doubt, a disorder that exists because too much of mankind think they're God, or can be God.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 09:45:52 PM »
Uh-huh.

You know, sir, I'm having a great deal of fun with this, as it considerably discombobulates evolution enthusiasts.

As you already know, I have no problem with the theory of evolution, but for your usual standard run-of-the-mill Roman Catholic, of the ten million most important things one should wonder about, the origin of mankind would rank something like 9,876,233rd in importance.

However, I do have problems with people allegedly "rational," for whom there is no god but Reason, and one shall not have any other gods before them but Reason.

Arrogant pompous intolerant narrow-minded asses, the Reasonists.

And so when there's egg to throw in their faces, it's all good.

In response to your question about "who moved," God has always been God, God will always be God.

It's the fate of mankind to wander around in confusion and disarray and doubt, a disorder that exists because too much of mankind think they're God, or can be God.

The only thing that "discombobulates" people who understand TToE is people who don't understand the basics of science throwing layperson reasoning into a complex subject.  And somehow suggesting that science is up for a vote, like when the Indiana legislature tried to declare the value of pi. 

We who love God and understand science get exasperated when people who would never presume to challenge a physicist or a chemist or an astronomer think that, armed with nothing more than a half-baked misunderstanding of TToE they are qualified to challenge life scientists.
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Offline Chris

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 12:20:02 AM »
We who love God and understand science get exasperated when people who would never presume to challenge a physicist or a chemist or an astronomer think that, armed with nothing more than a half-baked misunderstanding of TToE they are qualified to challenge life scientists.

So those of us that don't buy into the idea are below you lordly, smug monkey-men?  Do monkeys have immortal souls?  Where does that happen on the evolutionary scale?  If God created the heaven and the earth and the planets, why do you think he would have to tinker around with dozens (or hundreds) of iterations of some form of proto-sapien before finally getting it right?

Seems kind of presumptuous to me.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2008, 06:01:34 AM »
So those of us that don't buy into the idea are below you lordly, smug monkey-men?  Do monkeys have immortal souls?  Where does that happen on the evolutionary scale?  If God created the heaven and the earth and the planets, why do you think he would have to tinker around with dozens (or hundreds) of iterations of some form of proto-sapien before finally getting it right?

Seems kind of presumptuous to me.
:clap: :bravo:

That goes along with the acceptance that God created everything, but couldn't have possibly have done it in six days.   :mental:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2008, 06:37:06 AM »
So those of us that don't buy into the idea are below you lordly, smug monkey-men?  Do monkeys have immortal souls?  Where does that happen on the evolutionary scale?  If God created the heaven and the earth and the planets, why do you think he would have to tinker around with dozens (or hundreds) of iterations of some form of proto-sapien before finally getting it right?

Seems kind of presumptuous to me.

I don't know -- how about the idea that the nearest star is a trillion miles away?  That isn't consistent with a 6 day creation.  How about the Earth being billions of years old?

So tell me, in your own words, a summary of the scientific method and the difference between a scientific theory and a non-scientific theory?  I have even given you some info upthread.

If you say TToE is presumptuous, then you say that all of science is presumptuous.

Someone with no knowledge of a subject weighing in on whether that subject is valid: Now THAT is presumptuous.

And to presume you can read the mind of God and the ways He wanted to accomplish His design: THAT is presumptuous.

To suggest that God would put down billions of interlocking physical artifacts that create a consistent story to fool His children: THAT is presumptuous.

The more humble of us accept that this was God's plan and are amazed and astounded in how His Universe unfolds.

Your Hubris is showing, Luddite boy.

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Offline Chris

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 08:08:42 AM »
I don't know -- how about the idea that the nearest star is a trillion miles away?  That isn't consistent with a 6 day creation.  How about the Earth being billions of years old?

So tell me, in your own words, a summary of the scientific method and the difference between a scientific theory and a non-scientific theory?  I have even given you some info upthread.

If you say TToE is presumptuous, then you say that all of science is presumptuous.

Someone with no knowledge of a subject weighing in on whether that subject is valid: Now THAT is presumptuous.

And I suppose you have the requisite education that you expect of us that disagree with you?  You have read the original Hebrew text of the Bible that you demanded from Mrs. Smith?  I have no use for TToE -- at the end of the day, it serves absolutely no purpose.  If you want to go chasing after whatever shadows you see in a pile of misshapen bones, knock yourself out.

The Bible does not define a "day".  If He wanted to deifne a day as a billion years, then yes, you could claim that the universe was created in six days and it would fit with the archaeological records that we have.  Just because I don't agree with a bunch of Darwinites, does not make me a scientific Luddite.  Trying to make you see that you are not the only person with an opinion on this subject ranks somewhere below the WNBA and ice curling on my interest meter.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 08:10:30 AM by Chris »
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Offline franksolich

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Re: the conundrum
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2008, 08:25:30 AM »
Oh my.

Oh dear.

I didn't mean to make this thread combative; I only meant to ask people to speculate as to why franksolich's Theory of Human Behavior #373 occurs.

I see that it occurs, but I have no idea why it occurs.

franksolich's Theory of Human Behavior #373 states that "as the influence of religion on society diminishes, so too does the influence of science on the same society."

That's something that's not supposed to happen, but apparently it does happen.

As given in (a) the preceding examples of England, Norway, and Sweden, which societies appear to have dumped science (or "Reason" or "logic") just as rudely as they have dumped religion; and

in (b), Albania, the current example.  Albania had two generations to eradicate God, and given the vigor which they applied, they could've eliminated God in a single decade, not a whole two generations.

Albania was supposed to be the paragon of Reason and Logic, a model for all other nations and people, which one assumes involves the theory of evolution too; all Albanians denying the existence of God and 100% adhering to the scientific theory of evolution.

What the Hell happened here?  Why do we have all these Albanians running around denying "reason" and "logic"?  Why do we have all these Albanians running around acknowledging God and having doubts about scientific "truths"?

(Uh, for the record, in case no one's aware, Albania, with a population about the same as Nebraska, but in territory considerably smaller than Nebraska, in 1940 was circa 80% Islamic and 20% Christian, the only country in Europe with a majority Islamic population.  I have no idea what the proportion is now, nearly 70 years later, but it's reasonable to assume it's pretty much the same today.)
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