Author Topic: A simple but rhetorical question  (Read 4322 times)

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Offline mrclose

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A simple but rhetorical question
« on: January 27, 2014, 08:24:41 PM »
I wont quote scriptures here because I can't and I can't read very well (small print) due to cataracts but I assure you that the following has merit in the way I remember and understand it.

 As God proposed ... "In The Beginning", he created the heavens for the angels and the Earth for man.

 Man was to live and multiply and live forever upon it. (earth)

 We all know the story about failed perfection and the end of God's perfect plan .. or was it?

 Since scripture points out that whatever God sets out to do, it is his will and Must be done (accomplished) because .. He Is God!

 This says to me that the entire Bible is God's plan .. laid out as a kind of blueprint as to How his original plan Will come to be!?

 Earth, Paradise, Man.

 Heaven .. Spiritual beings.

 Someone please tell me Where in scripture that it says God failed and his original plan cannot or will not be fulfilled?

Is God Fallible?

 Thank You
"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead.
It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

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Offline obumazombie

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2014, 08:43:51 PM »
If God is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Lord of all, how can he be fallible ?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2014, 08:45:34 PM »
I don't think God failed.  I think Man failed.

It all boils down to original sin.
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Offline mrclose

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 08:52:17 PM »
If God is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Lord of all, how can he be fallible ?

The point I was trying to get at was the church teaching that everyone will either go to heaven or hell upon death.


 That conflicts with the original plan.

 There are also scriptures that describe what the new paradise earth will be like after Satan is destroyed and evil with him.

 I don't remember any references to folks being pulled back from the heavenly realm to live on earth afterwards?


I was, in a roundabout way trying to say .. God didn't fail.
"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead.
It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

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Offline Chris_

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 08:55:43 PM »
I don't remember any references to folks being pulled back from the heavenly realm to live on earth afterwards?
There was Lazarus, but that's the only one I remember.  I remember something about Ezekiel to be the only man who did not die, but was taken directly to Heaven, but that's a whole other can of worms.
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Offline mrclose

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 09:08:26 PM »
There was Lazarus, but that's the only one I remember.  I remember something about Ezekiel to be the only man who did not die, but was taken directly to Heaven, but that's a whole other can of worms.

It was enoch (sp?) that folks read about in 1st Kings as not having died.

Not true.

In 2nd Kings he writes a letter to (I forget who, Samuel?) telling of his 'vision' of being drawn away to the heavens.

(For flesh and bone cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven)

(Also Jesus said .. No one has ascended to heaven except himself .. in different words than mine.) :rofl:

Lazarus was a resurrection miracle .. one that I believe is a foretelling of the resurrection of ALL the dead, righteous and UN-righteous that will come when satan is imprisoned .. for a short while.

There is more to come after the Satan imprisonment deal I talked about above but isn't the purpose of my post.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 09:19:18 PM by mrclose »
"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead.
It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

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Offline mrclose

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2014, 09:10:48 PM »
Quote
I don't remember any references to folks being pulled back from the heavenly realm to live on earth afterwards?

THAT was sarcasm. :cheersmate:
"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead.
It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

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Offline Chris_

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2014, 09:13:59 PM »
I plead ignorance.  My family never went to church... my entire knowledge of the Bible comes from the UNA Baptist Church's summer camp that we were sent to so mom could get us out of the house for a few hours a day during summer vacation (we did English and arithmetic homework when we got home).

I had no idea what those people were talking about.  :rofl:
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Offline mrclose

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2014, 09:18:04 PM »
I plead ignorance.  My family never went to church... my entire knowledge of the Bible comes from the UNA Baptist Church's summer camp that we were sent to so mom could get us out of the house for a few hours a day during summer vacation (we did English and arithmetic homework when we got home).

I had no idea what those people were talking about.  :rofl:

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :cheersmate:
"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead.
It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

~ Anonymous

Offline Chris_

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2014, 09:26:48 PM »
:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :cheersmate:
Honestly, I hated that place.  It was a wooden pavilion behind the church with concrete picnic tables buried in some trees.  Year after year was mosquito bites, Bible pop quizzes, and warm Kool-aid.

It was neither fun nor educational.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 09:34:32 PM by Chris_ »
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2014, 06:31:29 PM »
I wont quote scriptures here because I can't and I can't read very well (small print) due to cataracts but I assure you that the following has merit in the way I remember and understand it.

 As God proposed ... "In The Beginning", he created the heavens for the angels and the Earth for man.

 Man was to live and multiply and live forever upon it. (earth)

 We all know the story about failed perfection and the end of God's perfect plan .. or was it?

 Since scripture points out that whatever God sets out to do, it is his will and Must be done (accomplished) because .. He Is God!

 This says to me that the entire Bible is God's plan .. laid out as a kind of blueprint as to How his original plan Will come to be!?

 Earth, Paradise, Man.

 Heaven .. Spiritual beings.

 Someone please tell me Where in scripture that it says God failed and his original plan cannot or will not be fulfilled?

Is God Fallible?

 Thank You
God will eventually, in His time, bring His plan about.  What with giving us all free will, He is working in such a way that even evil actions will end up bringing about His plan.  He will not fail.  Us little creatures, stuck on the time line and living moment by moment, can have no idea how He sees things since He lives outside Time.
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Offline FlaGator

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2014, 06:50:56 PM »
God will eventually, in His time, bring His plan about.  What with giving us all free will, He is working in such a way that even evil actions will end up bringing about His plan.  He will not fail.  Us little creatures, stuck on the time line and living moment by moment, can have no idea how He sees things since He lives outside Time.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:28
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Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: A simple but rhetorical question
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 07:16:07 PM »
I wont quote scriptures here because I can't and I can't read very well (small print) due to cataracts but I assure you that the following has merit in the way I remember and understand it.

 As God proposed ... "In The Beginning", he created the heavens for the angels and the Earth for man.

 Man was to live and multiply and live forever upon it. (earth)

 We all know the story about failed perfection and the end of God's perfect plan .. or was it?

 Since scripture points out that whatever God sets out to do, it is his will and Must be done (accomplished) because .. He Is God!

 This says to me that the entire Bible is God's plan .. laid out as a kind of blueprint as to How his original plan Will come to be!?

 Earth, Paradise, Man.

 Heaven .. Spiritual beings.

 Someone please tell me Where in scripture that it says God failed and his original plan cannot or will not be fulfilled?

Is God Fallible?

 Thank You

You are wandering into some theological nosebleed areas.

To begin with, no God is not fallible.  The appearance thereof has everything to do with Man's inability to perceive (or even comprehend) His Plan.  We tend to think of God as Man Writ Large -- as an approachable very powerful man with a white beard who looks a lot like Charlton Heston.

In fact, God is so infinitely beyond our ken that we really don't see the "big picture" nor can we.  Instead, we need to rely on His Word to us.

Even then, the idea of predetermination has been vexing Man for thousands of years. Martin Luther and Erasmus feuded over it during the Reformation, to the point where they despised each other despite each being a brilliant logician and theologian.

In "The Freedom of the Will," Erasmus defined free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God."  This, of course, indicates that man needs both free will AND God's grace to "choose good."

That opening is all it took for Luther to publish "The Bondage of the Will" -- the very name was a thumb in the eye of Erasmus.  As noted elsewhere in this thread Original Sin means that by definition Man is bonded to sin and carries that bondage until released by God's intervention.  Thus, "free will" is an illusion. 

Does this result in God being bonded to Man?  If so, then God is not sovereign -- a situation that is logically satisfying to some agnostics and most atheists. 

The balance tipper is Jesus Christ.  He broke the logical bond of Man to Sin and thus freed Man to follow sin or grace according to each person's ability to discern evil or good.  THIS DOES NOT MEAN MAN CAN BE SAVED THROUGH WORKS.  It is in Man's Heart that grace is found.  Invariable, the works follow the grace, not the other way around.

Predestination (think Calvinism) is a bankrupt perspective -- a spiritual nihilism that leads nowhere.

That is the best I can do address your weighty question...

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