Author Topic: New Member to ConservativeCave  (Read 36516 times)

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Offline Big Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 11:29:51 PM »

I will have one of each.






That is all kinds of mouth-watering.

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Offline here

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 11:37:58 PM »
Poor girl has to sleep on her back

Offline Lex

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2013, 01:11:35 AM »
We must acknowledge no such thing. I reject the idea completely.

The idea of Big Daddy government is exclusive to neoliberalism. "The State" is made up of elected politicians and appointed bureaucrats. Not one of them are elected or appointed because they are wiser, more just, or more honest than any Citizen. Not one of them are qualified to act in loco parentis, and the machine of the State certainly is not. Read The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek, particularly chapter 10, for a deeper discussion of this point.

That you excluded yourself from needing Big Daddy Government to run your life, but insisted it is necessary for others showed me that you are also an elitist. But the authoritarian collectivist (read "neoliberal") Hive does not permit the individual to opt out. It seeks to control everyone. What will you do when the State declares you to be a kulak and sends the lumpenproletariat for your head?

Seeing the government as a "father figure" for society doesn't immediately make you a liberal. There are many ideologies which see the state as such. Liberalism in the modern, American sense is not the one ideology that has that view.

Also, you cannot deny the state has played a large part in the development of humanity. It's like saying the wheel wasn't essential to the creation of chariots and automobiles. It's just plain wrong.

Also, "neoliberalism" is not what you think it means. Shown by you saying authoritarian collectivists are neoliberals. Here is the definition.

"Neoliberalism is a political philosophy whose advocates support economic liberalization, free trade and open markets, privatization, deregulation, and decreasing the size of the public sector while increasing the role of the private sector in modern society." - Wikipedia, Neoliberalism

Calling neoliberalism authoritarian collectivization is like calling Ayn Rand a Marxist. The complete opposite is the case.

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Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2013, 04:54:37 AM »

People who start off saying, "I don't like labels." always end up being liberals. Always.
Well if what I answered here makes me a liberal, so be it.

Yes. I am proven right once again.
BS given for trying to hide your liberal nature. (It's not like a 100 other trolls didn't say the exact same thing you did.)

Offline Big Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2013, 06:16:28 AM »
Seeing the government as a "father figure" for society doesn't immediately make you a liberal. There are many ideologies which see the state as such. Liberalism in the modern, American sense is not the one ideology that has that view.

Also, you cannot deny the state has played a large part in the development of humanity. It's like saying the wheel wasn't essential to the creation of chariots and automobiles. It's just plain wrong.

Also, "neoliberalism" is not what you think it means. Shown by you saying authoritarian collectivists are neoliberals. Here is the definition.

"Neoliberalism is a political philosophy whose advocates support economic liberalization, free trade and open markets, privatization, deregulation, and decreasing the size of the public sector while increasing the role of the private sector in modern society." - Wikipedia, Neoliberalism

Calling neoliberalism authoritarian collectivization is like calling Ayn Rand a Marxist. The complete opposite is the case.

I used "neoliberalism" as a synonym for modern Progressivism, which is authoritarian collectivism. I stand corrected.

However, I stand by my characterization of Liberalism/Progressivism as the American political theory which places the State in loco parentis.

Quote
you cannot deny the state has played a large part in the development of humanity.

Strawman argument. Bitchslap for you.

You're still a liberal. Own it, as we as here at CC.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 06:37:54 AM by Big Dog »
Government is the negation of liberty.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2013, 08:18:37 AM »
Oh boy this one is gonna be fun. :popcorn:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Eupher

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2013, 08:30:50 AM »
Seeing the government as a "father figure" for society doesn't immediately make you a liberal. There are many ideologies which see the state as such. Liberalism in the modern, American sense is not the one ideology that has that view.

Also, you cannot deny the state has played a large part in the development of humanity. It's like saying the wheel wasn't essential to the creation of chariots and automobiles. It's just plain wrong.

Also, "neoliberalism" is not what you think it means. Shown by you saying authoritarian collectivists are neoliberals. Here is the definition.

"Neoliberalism is a political philosophy whose advocates support economic liberalization, free trade and open markets, privatization, deregulation, and decreasing the size of the public sector while increasing the role of the private sector in modern society." - Wikipedia, Neoliberalism

Calling neoliberalism authoritarian collectivization is like calling Ayn Rand a Marxist. The complete opposite is the case.


Big Dog and Mr. Mannn have already taken you to task for being the liberal you are -- not that that's a crime, btw. Once you recognize your disease, however, you can take steps to fix it. Spending some time here just might be the pill to fix that disease.

That said, I will take you to task for your "father figure" nonsense.

You're trying to look at the state as being a necessity. In any society, some organization is certainly bound to happen and is appropriate, so we won't debate that. I will point out, however, that the very essence of government is to restrict liberty.

That business of individual liberty is central to the point I want to make with you. Liberty is what enables us to succeed and to prosper without that "father figure" you love so dearly. Liberty is what makes us stronger as individuals and as individuals within a collective. Liberty is what I served to defend, and perhaps yourself as well. Liberty is what America is for and about.

There are balances we must maintain, of course. We can't have anarchy and we obviously can't have a police state.

Oops. Waitaminute. Police state...

IRS. Fast and Furious. Benghazi. NSA. EPA. And the list goes on and on and on.

People who think like you about "father figures" make excuses and otherwise pander to the shitstink scandals I just mentioned. You (collective you) turn a blind eye to these outrages because in your minds, it's acceptable for the government to behave in this manner.

People like you forget one basic, irrefutable fact: Governments are PEOPLE. Governments are FALLIBLE. Governments MUST BE RESTRICTED FROM TOO MUCH POWER.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2013, 08:45:57 AM »
What our n00b fails to understand is that:

" Man is not free unless government is limited".

What this country has achieved is not because of Government intrusion but despite it.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=83285.0

Offline ColonelCarrots

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2013, 09:27:19 AM »
Why were the Articles of the Confederation thrown away? They weren't specific.

Why was the Constitution made? To be more specific on how the government should be run. It was to limit what it could and could not do. Some of the signers believed that the representatives should not have been paid and that they were in service to the people. Eventually majority of the signers believed that the government should be run by the people, and some believed that only wealthy and educated should vote because the common man was easily swayed.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 09:30:45 AM by ColonelCarrots »

Offline Big Dog

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Re: Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2013, 09:43:41 AM »
What our n00b fails to understand is that:

" Man is not free unless government is limited".

What this country has achieved is not because of Government intrusion but despite it.

Well said. High five.
Government is the negation of liberty.
  -Ludwig von Mises

CAVE FVROREM PATIENTIS.

Offline Hathcock

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2013, 09:46:56 AM »
Welcome, Lex!

Uh....do you like peach cobbler?

 :whistling:

Bwahahahaha!
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Offline ColonelCarrots

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2013, 10:16:32 AM »
What is the euphemism behind peach cobbler?

Offline Hathcock

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2013, 10:24:31 AM »
Poor girl has to sleep on her back
She's welcome to sleep on me...  :wink:
I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you with tears in my eyes: if you **** with me, I'll kill you all! - USMC General James Mattis.

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2013, 10:27:12 AM »
She's welcome to sleep on me...  :wink:

Hmm, I'm pretty sure she would sleep well with a doorknocker under her ass too

Offline Bad Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2013, 10:28:00 AM »
What is the euphemism behind peach cobbler?

Not euphemism, rather truth.  Sometimes it is better to absorb knowledge slowly Grasshopper.

Offline Bad Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2013, 10:29:44 AM »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure she would sleep well with a doorknocker under her ass too

What is the euphemism behind doorknocker?

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 10:29:52 AM »
What is the euphemism behind peach cobbler?

Somethings, I don't want to ever know

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 10:36:04 AM »
What is the euphemism behind doorknocker?

It's hard to pretend no one his home when you skip the door part

Offline Big Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 10:45:10 AM »
Let's go back to this question:

Quote
2. Choose one:
a. I own the fruits of my labors (income, intellectual property, etc.), and the government is entitled to the smallest amount necessary to perform its essential functions
b. The government owns the fruits of my labors, and is entitled to take as much as it wants.

Your answer:
Quote
2. Choice B

The government does has the right to take some fruits of my labor, but they definitely do not have the right to a majority of it. Especially if I'm actually a wage worker rather than someone who sits in an office and has profit produced for them by the workers. I believe that when it comes to taxation they can spend wherever they want it, not just the bare essentials. Again, referring to the answer in question one. The government is like the father figure for society. What would a family be like if they just provided clothes, food, water, and shelter for their children, and had no parenting? It wouldn't be the healthiest family. We need taxes to spend on other things than just the bare basics.

Aside from the feel-good kum-ba-yah bullshit about government being our father, two things are worth noting.

1. You chose "The government owns the fruits of my labors, and is entitled to take as much as it wants."  Say that sentence out loud. You just denied the natural right of property ownership. John Locke is going to rise from the dead and bitch-slap you.

Your first sentence contradicts that position, but you clearly stated that you believe you do not own your wage, savings, property, or any other benefits of productivity. They are the property of the government, to be allotted to you at their whim, or at their benevolence.

You are not just a subject, you are a slave.

2. You said, "I believe that when it comes to taxation they can spend wherever they want it, not just the bare essentials." Have you ever heard of the concept of government being "responsible stewards of the public trust"? Giving the government leave to spend our money (and make no mistake, it is money taken from us, the taxpayers, by force) "wherever they want" leads directly to waste, fraud, and abuse- since "they" want to spend our money that way.

Are you sure you want to stand by that position?
Government is the negation of liberty.
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Offline Big Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2013, 10:48:02 AM »
Somethings, I don't want to ever know

It's part of the CC culture. If you're going to spend much time here, it would behoove you to find out.

Hint: It is related to "beer, bacon, pie, and boobiez."
Government is the negation of liberty.
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CAVE FVROREM PATIENTIS.

Offline Bad Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2013, 10:55:47 AM »
The framers carefully constructed the Constitution to ensure the govt. had no rights.

Once the govt. starts granting itself rights, it won't stop and, you are well and truly f*****!

Offline Hathcock

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2013, 10:57:18 AM »
Ok, The government is not benevolent, it's about control. Welfare is designed to hold people at the poverty level, that is why it isn't progressive. once you reach a certain income level the benefits stop. If it were progressive it would encourage people to get a job and as they made more money the benefits would adjust until the person is self sufficient. that is why the democrat party is always saying Republicans want to take the benefits away to scare the low income level citizens into voting for them.
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Offline Lex

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2013, 11:05:13 AM »
Big Dog and Mr. Mannn have already taken you to task for being the liberal you are -- not that that's a crime, btw. Once you recognize your disease, however, you can take steps to fix it. Spending some time here just might be the pill to fix that disease.

That said, I will take you to task for your "father figure" nonsense.

You're trying to look at the state as being a necessity. In any society, some organization is certainly bound to happen and is appropriate, so we won't debate that. I will point out, however, that the very essence of government is to restrict liberty.

That business of individual liberty is central to the point I want to make with you. Liberty is what enables us to succeed and to prosper without that "father figure" you love so dearly. Liberty is what makes us stronger as individuals and as individuals within a collective. Liberty is what I served to defend, and perhaps yourself as well. Liberty is what America is for and about.[1]

There are balances we must maintain, of course. We can't have anarchy and we obviously can't have a police state.

Oops. Waitaminute. Police state...[2]

IRS. Fast and Furious. Benghazi. NSA. EPA. And the list goes on and on and on.

People who think like you about "father figures" make excuses and otherwise pander to the shitstink scandals I just mentioned.[3] You (collective you) turn a blind eye to these outrages because in your minds, it's acceptable for the government to behave in this manner.

People like you forget one basic, irrefutable fact: Governments are PEOPLE. Governments are FALLIBLE. Governments MUST BE RESTRICTED FROM TOO MUCH POWER.

[1]

Liberty requires responsibility.

A majority of people are not exactly the most rational, responsible, and intelligent people in the world here. Surely some liberty is certainly necessary, but we shouldn't have the wants of the few (i.e, individuals) go above the needs of the many (i.e, the nation.)

You serving in a foreign country and shooting at hajis isn't really protecting liberty, or me for that matter. Fighting terrorists in the Homefront, that protects me. Not the US's neo-imperialist invasion of foreign countries simply because they didn't bow to our will.

Also, America being founded upon liberty certainly depends on where you look. On an ideological basis, they advocated classical liberalism, basically enlightenment-era ideology from Europe. However, you look at what the US government did, and you can very much see how this country contradicted its own principles, and especially a lot in contemporary times (even before Obama got into office, sorry.)

[2]

You think this is a police state? You haven't seen anything yet, my friend. Why did you add the EPA in there? Do you consider environmental regulations a part of the evil police state machine?

[3]

Nice strawman. I detest these schemes, and absolutely shit policy (i.e, Fast and Furious, giving guns to Mexican cartels isn't really a good idea, that's like giving bombs to the Mujahideen.) It's the constant conservative fallacy to call anybody who doesn't fall into their narrow views a liberal, and to assume that they like all the opposite things conservatives do to make it easier to attack their views.
I used "neoliberalism" as a synonym for modern Progressivism, which is authoritarian collectivism. I stand corrected.[1]

However, I stand by my characterization of Liberalism/Progressivism as the American political theory which places the State in loco parentis.

Strawman argument. Bitchslap for you.[2]

You're still a liberal. Own it, as we as here at CC.[3]

[1]

The modern American Progressivism is probably one of the farthest things from authoritarian collectivism, and this is a strawman in order to make it easier to attack. Progressives still want the same capitalism you do.

[2]

So, the establishment of order in society did not contribute to the advancement of culture, technology, writing systems, civilizations, and more due to the acquisition of agricultural surplus and the establishment of permanent settlements? Well then, I'm guessing African tribes in stateless societies should be burgeoning superpowers today, yes?

[3]

Again, calling me a liberal is a strawman. You have to go deeper than "if you have views contradictory to mine you're a liberal." By your standards, any single person who does not advocate for smaller government and individual liberty is a liberal. You'd be calling Julius Evola, a traditionalist, who proclaimed he was an anti-fascist, but also anti-democratic, a liberal, and that would be quite wrong to the highest degree.
"Hate must be born from Love." - Otto Strasser

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

"Let us be men of this country, not men of a party." - Napoleon III

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato

Offline Bad Dog

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Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2013, 11:11:21 AM »
[1]

Liberty requires responsibility.

A majority of people are not exactly the most rational, responsible, and intelligent people in the world here. Surely some liberty is certainly necessary, but we shouldn't have the wants of the few (i.e, individuals) go above the needs of the many (i.e, the nation.)

You serving in a foreign country and shooting at hajis isn't really protecting liberty, or me for that matter. Fighting terrorists in the Homefront, that protects me. Not the US's neo-imperialist invasion of foreign countries simply because they didn't bow to our will.

Also, America being founded upon liberty certainly depends on where you look. On an ideological basis, they advocated classical liberalism, basically enlightenment-era ideology from Europe. However, you look at what the US government did, and you can very much see how this country contradicted its own principles, and especially a lot in contemporary times (even before Obama got into office, sorry.)

[2]

You think this is a police state? You haven't seen anything yet, my friend. Why did you add the EPA in there? Do you consider environmental regulations a part of the evil police state machine?

[3]

Nice strawman. I detest these schemes, and absolutely shit policy (i.e, Fast and Furious, giving guns to Mexican cartels isn't really a good idea, that's like giving bombs to the Mujahideen.) It's the constant conservative fallacy to call anybody who doesn't fall into their narrow views a liberal, and to assume that they like all the opposite things conservatives do to make it easier to attack their views.
[1]

The modern American Progressivism is probably one of the farthest things from authoritarian collectivism, and this is a strawman in order to make it easier to attack. Progressives still want the same capitalism you do.

[2]

So, the establishment of order in society did not contribute to the advancement of culture, technology, writing systems, civilizations, and more due to the acquisition of agricultural surplus and the establishment of permanent settlements? Well then, I'm guessing African tribes in stateless societies should be burgeoning superpowers today, yes?

[3]

Again, calling me a liberal is a strawman. You have to go deeper than "if you have views contradictory to mine you're a liberal." By your standards, any single person who does not advocate for smaller government and individual liberty is a liberal. You'd be calling Julius Evola, a traditionalist, who proclaimed he was an anti-fascist, but also anti-democratic, a liberal, and that would be quite wrong to the highest degree.

I'm calling you a liberal strawman.

Do you like pie?

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Re: New Member to ConservativeCave
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2013, 11:13:48 AM »
Sounds like we've got a college kid trying to use us as an experiment.

Ok n00b you ate trying to claim you're not a lib...how do you feel about current proposals on:

Immigration reform.

Obamacare.

Social Security reform.

Energy independence.

Abortion.

Gay marriage.



Not asking for a college dissertation on them like you've been doing with your previous responses. Just short concise answers on why you are for/against the above issues.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=83285.0