Original Sin

[Kyle Ricky]

No, actually, rdking647, it's a lot more than a single passage in Leviticus. Check out Romans 1:18-32 in the New Testament, for example. Plus, there are all those passages throughout the Bible speaking of God's institution of marriage as between a man and woman. And the fact that homosexual perversion is called "Sodomy" should tell you something about what God thinks of it.

And if that's not enough, you don't even need to read the Bible to tell you that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. The design of the human body, the differences between male and female, how the human race is reproduced, the "Part A goes into Part B" stuff--that too should send the message.

Nature, reason, conscience, AND the clear word of God on the subject--all these things agree and are screaming out: "Man and woman, NOT man and man or woman and woman!" I think you homophiliacs need to read the story about "The Emperor's New Clothes," because you're living it out.

BTW, if you guys at the DUmp wish to compare credentials on Biblical interpretation, go for it. I have a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) degree, a Master of Sacred Theology (S.T.M.) in Exegetical Theology, and am "All But Dissertation" on a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies. Call me when you know something about what you're talking about.

God bless you. That is beautiful. Hi5 from me as well.

I have a question, Charles. I been hearing gays say that the bible references gays in the bible by calling them Eunuchs. I know that is utter garbage, but what is you opinion on it? This passage to be specific:

Matthew 19:12 - For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

Of course Eunuchs are mentioned in more places than there, but they use that passage specifically to argue that God mentioned gays, and that it proves that you are born gay.

[Charles Henrickson]

I have a question, Charles. I been hearing gays say that the bible references gays in the bible by calling them Eunuchs. I know that is utter garbage, but what is you opinion on it? This passage to be specific: Matthew 19:12 - "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” Of course Eunuchs are mentioned in more places than there, but they use that passage specifically to argue that God mentioned gays, and that it proves that you are born gay.

This is in the context of Jesus affirming marriage--the marriage of a man and a woman--as God's institution, not to be violated by man through divorce or infidelity (see Matthew 19:3-12, below). Some thought that was too strict, and that therefore it is better not to marry.  Jesus then says that the state of NOT being married is not for everyone, i.e., not everyone is cut out (no pun intended) to lead a celibate life, foregoing sexual activity. Some people ARE suited for celibacy, though: those few who are born without a strong desire for the opposite sex; those few who become that way by accident or injury; and those few who have the God-given gift of celibacy so that they can devote more of their time to the work of the kingdom (St. Paul had this gift).

None of this is defending homosexual behavior, though. That is condemned throughout Scripture. To have a temptation toward a sinful behavior is one thing. To act on it is another. And to be proud of said sinful behavior, and for society to approve it, that is even worse.

Different people have different temptations. I for one am a raging heterosexual. I find many women attractive. But that is not an excuse for me to act on my desires and engage in sexual activity outside of marriage.

Whether heterosexual lust or homosexual lust, having a desire is not an excuse for engaging in sinful behavior. God's good provision for sexual desire is marriage, which is always between a man and a woman.

Matthew 19:3-12 (ESV)

3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9  And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
 
10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

[Ballygrl]

No, actually, rdking647, it's a lot more than a single passage in Leviticus. Check out Romans 1:18-32 in the New Testament, for example. Plus, there are all those passages throughout the Bible speaking of God's institution of marriage as between a man and woman. And the fact that homosexual perversion is called "Sodomy" should tell you something about what God thinks of it.

And if that's not enough, you don't even need to read the Bible to tell you that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. The design of the human body, the differences between male and female, how the human race is reproduced, the "Part A goes into Part B" stuff--that too should send the message.

Nature, reason, conscience, AND the clear word of God on the subject--all these things agree and are screaming out: "Man and woman, NOT man and man or woman and woman!" I think you homophiliacs need to read the story about "The Emperor's New Clothes," because you're living it out.

BTW, if you guys at the DUmp wish to compare credentials on Biblical interpretation, go for it. I have a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) degree, a Master of Sacred Theology (S.T.M.) in Exegetical Theology, and am "All But Dissertation" on a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies. Call me when you know something about what you're talking about.

Charles, since you're a Minister can I ask you a question? I'd really like a man of the cloths perspective on this. OK, I'm Catholic, contrary to what leftists think, we don't spend our time focusing on homosexuality, I can only recall 1 time where it was mentioned in a Homily and the only thing the Priest said was to love the sinner hate the sin. I've been told I have "gaydar" everyone laughs because they say I can only find the gay person in any crowd LOL, pretty much only the men though not the women. As far back as I can remember, we're talking childhood here, there were people that I grew up with that I knew were different, when you're young you don't really have a label to put on it, but I knew there was something different about them, then growing up I came to the conclusion that they were gay, it seems like I came to that conclusion in some cases before they even realized it, so my thinking has always been that gay people are born that way, not all of them because I do think it's possible that some make that choice, in particular as an example, say a woman has been abused physically and mentally for years by men, I think it's possible she can get fed-up and decide to only be with women, but I think a high percentage are actually born gay. So my questions are this, isn't it possible that God knows that some people will be gay, and since God is a loving and forgiving God, that a gay person isn't really committing a sin? isn't it possible that gay people were actually born that way? and if a person leads a good life, they care about others, do people really think God wouldn't forgive that person for certain transgressions if homosexuality is indeed a sin? I consider myself a Religious person, and yes I take an opposing point of view that my Church takes on homosexuality.

Thanks

[Carl]

I don`t moderate this forum so can`t do it but would suggest that BGs question be split off to the religion forum as it is more fitting there to have a discussion about.

That is in no way a desire to hide it but just a recognition it is outside the normal perimeters of the DUmpster and could get many viewpoints offered.

[Ballygrl]

I don`t moderate this forum so can`t do it but would suggest that BGs question be split off to the religion forum as it is more fitting there to have a discussion about.

That is in no way a desire to hide it but just a recognition it is outside the normal perimeters of the DUmpster and could get many viewpoints offered.

No problem, I wasn't sure where to put my questions, but thought maybe here because lurkers could read it, but if it's not appropriate I have no problem with it going in the Religion Forum.

[Kyle Ricky]

This is in the context of Jesus affirming marriage--the marriage of a man and a woman--as God's institution, not to be violated by man through divorce or infidelity (see Matthew 19:3-12, below). Some thought that was too strict, and that therefore it is better not to marry.  Jesus then says that the state of NOT being married is not for everyone, i.e., not everyone is cut out (no pun intended) to lead a celibate life, foregoing sexual activity. Some people ARE suited for celibacy, though: those few who are born without a strong desire for the opposite sex; those few who become that way by accident or injury; and those few who have the God-given gift of celibacy so that they can devote more of their time to the work of the kingdom (St. Paul had this gift).

None of this is defending homosexual behavior, though. That is condemned throughout Scripture. To have a temptation toward a sinful behavior is one thing. To act on it is another. And to be proud of said sinful behavior, and for society to approve it, that is even worse.

Different people have different temptations. I for one am a raging heterosexual. I find many women attractive. But that is not an excuse for me to act on my desires and engage in sexual activity outside of marriage.

Whether heterosexual lust or homosexual lust, having a desire is not an excuse for engaging in sinful behavior. God's good provision for sexual desire is marriage, which is always between a man and a woman.

Matthew 19:3-12 (ESV)

3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9  And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
 
10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

It is funny that you should bring those passages up. The pastor of my church and I were just talking about them last week. They are great passages and put a good stamp on marriage.

[Freeper]

I don`t moderate this forum so can`t do it but would suggest that BGs question be split off to the religion forum as it is more fitting there to have a discussion about.

That is in no way a desire to hide it but just a recognition it is outside the normal perimeters of the DUmpster and could get many viewpoints offered.

I think the question is relevant to the discussion that the DUmmies started. If any of the other mods in this forum disagree they are free to split it. Not that they need my permission of course. 

[Charles Henrickson]

my thinking has always been that gay people are born that way, not all of them because I do think it's possible that some make that choice. . . . So my questions are this, isn't it possible that God knows that some people will be gay, and since God is a loving and forgiving God, that a gay person isn't really committing a sin? isn't it possible that gay people were actually born that way? and if a person leads a good life, they care about others, do people really think God wouldn't forgive that person for certain transgressions if homosexuality is indeed a sin?

Even if people are "born that way," if "that way" is outside of God's way, that is sin. God's way for humans to engage in sexual activity is marriage, which is between a man and a woman.

The "born that way" argument does not take into account the doctrine of original sin. Sin--man's sin, and the curse of futiiity that comes with it--has screwed up the human race. Babies are born with birth defects. Babies die. People are born with a sinful nature, which then leads to various actual sins.

That a person is born with a tendency to engage in sin--rebellion against God's good order--that is common to us all. That sinful tendency can take various forms. Some may have a predilection toward this sin, others toward that sin. Some men may be "wired" with a high rage factor, a violent predisposition. They need to be able to control their behavior. Same with any other "born that way" tendency.

That all of us are born sinners does not remove our culpability. Only one thing can absolve our guilt. And it is not how "good" a person I am. The only thing that can take away the judgment for our sin is the precious blood of Christ, which he shed for us on the cross.

God loves all sinners, homosexuals included. The thing to do is not to make excuses for our sins, but rather to recognize our sinfulness, repent of it, and turn to Christ for forgiveness--and the strength to resist temptation.

[Ballygrl]

Even if people are "born that way," if "that way" is outside of God's way, that is sin. God's way for humans to engage in sexual activity is marriage, which is between a man and a woman.

The "born that way" argument does not take into account the doctrine of original sin. Sin--man's sin, and the curse of futiiity that comes with it--has screwed up the human race. Babies are born with birth defects. Babies die. People are born with a sinful nature, which then leads to various actual sins.

That a person is born with a tendency to engage in sin--rebellion against God's good order--that is common to us all. That sinful tendency can take various forms. Some may have a predilection toward this sin, others toward that sin. Some men may be "wired" with a high rage factor, a violent predisposition. They need to be able to control their behavior. Same with any other "born that way" tendency.

That all of us are born sinners does not remove our culpability. Only one thing can absolve our guilt. And it is not how "good" a person I am. The only thing that can take away the judgment for our sin is the precious blood of Christ, which he shed for us on the cross.

God loves all sinners, homosexuals included. The thing to do is not to make excuses for our sins, but rather to recognize our sinfulness, repent of it, and turn to Christ for forgiveness--and the strength to resist temptation.

Then basically we're all sinners?

[Kyle Ricky]

Then basically we're all sinners?

Romans 3:23 - 'All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.'

Ephesians 2:8 - 'For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.'

John 14:16 - 'Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'

[Zeus]

Then basically we're all sinners?

Original sin.

[Charles Henrickson]

Then basically we're all sinners?

Yes. Read Romans 1:18 - 3:20 ("None is righteous, no, not one") . . . and then read 3:21-28 for the gospel. Read Ephesians 2:1-3 ("by nature children of wrath") . . . and then read 2:4-10 for the gospel.

Homosexual behavior is one particular "outcropping" of our sinful nature. Adultery, murder, greed, lying, pride--the temptations can vary from individual to individual, and some sins are more destructive of the human community than others, but all are forms of our sinful rebellion against God. All to be repented of, not defended. All in need of God's forgiveness in Christ.

[Kyle Ricky]

Yes. Read Romans 1:18 - 3:20 ("None is righteous, no, not one") . . . and then read 3:21-28 for the gospel. Read Ephesians 2:1-3 ("by nature children of wrath") . . . and then read 2:4-10 for the gospel.

Homosexual behavior is one particular "outcropping" of our sinful nature. Adultery, murder, greed, lying, pride--the temptations can vary from individual to individual, and some sins are more destructive of the human community than others, but all are forms of our sinful rebellion against God. All to be repented of, not defended. All in need of God's forgiveness in Christ.

You should write a weekly column or something in the religious section. I would be really interested in reading it.

[Ballygrl]

Yes. Read Romans 1:18 - 3:20 ("None is righteous, no, not one") . . . and then read 3:21-28 for the gospel. Read Ephesians 2:1-3 ("by nature children of wrath") . . . and then read 2:4-10 for the gospel.

Homosexual behavior is one particular "outcropping" of our sinful nature. Adultery, murder, greed, lying, pride--the temptations can vary from individual to individual, and some sins are more destructive of the human community than others, but all are forms of our sinful rebellion against God. All to be repented of, not defended. All in need of God's forgiveness in Christ.

Then why just protest 1 sin as opposed to protesting all sins? or is it that people just protest against homosexuality because they're tired of an agenda being shoved in their faces?

[Charles Henrickson]

You should write a weekly column or something in the religious section. I would be really interested in reading it.

Well, I post all my sermons on the Internet in various places, including Free Republic (search under the keyword "sermon"). And you can find them all at my church's website, stmatthewbt.org. I also have a blog at steadfastlutherans.org.

Thanks for your kind words.

[Freeper]

Then why just protest 1 sin as opposed to protesting all sins? or is it that people just protest against homosexuality because they're tired of an agenda being shoved in their faces?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[Mr Mannn]

Then why just protest 1 sin as opposed to protesting all sins? or is it that people just protest against homosexuality because they're tired of an agenda being shoved in their faces?

Because its the only sin being presented as a civil right.
There are no marches for thieves rights, or drunkard rights. Only one of these listed sins has been redefined and force fed to our children. It gets all the attention, because its constantly thrust in our faces.

[Charles Henrickson]

Then why just protest 1 sin as opposed to protesting all sins? or is it that people just protest against homosexuality because they're tired of an agenda being shoved in their faces?

All sins are sin, i.e., evidence of our fallen sinful nature, whether in thought, word, or deed, sins of commission, sins of omission, "big" sins, "little" sins, etc. And we are all equally guilty in God's sight and in need of his forgiveness. But some sins are more damaging or destructive of the human community than others. Thus, civil laws, to keep order in the world. These laws should comport with and be congruent with God's law, which is written on human hearts. So we have civil laws against murder, stealing, bearing false witness, etc.

But when one of the foundations of human society--in this case, marriage--comes under attack, and men try to change what God has established, that calls for a public outcry.

[MrsSmith]

Then why just protest 1 sin as opposed to protesting all sins? or is it that people just protest against homosexuality because they're tired of an agenda being shoved in their faces?

In the past, Christians have fought hard to get things like drugs and alcohol recognized as problems.  It didn't all work out smoothly, but at least we do now treat addicts and alcoholics as problems...
Christians fought hard against slavery (not all, true, but the majority) and won that battle.  Christians fought for civil rights, and won that battle.  We won the battle against infanticide (though that evil is returning.)

Today, we fight for the rights of unborn humans.  We fight to educate people about what actually happens with birth control drugs and abortifacients.  Christians fought to educate people about cervical cancer being an STD, a fact the left finally admitted after an immunization was developed.  Christians fight to get things like abstinence education in our schools because it actually does reduce sexual activity in teenagers when someone tells them how to be responsible.  Christians fight the welfare system, not because we hate single mothers but because we love children and don't believe our government should be supporting a system that costs most children a father...not to mention the fact that assisting these families would be far cheaper for the entire country if it were done through traditional charities, which have nowhere near the vast overhead the Federal government has.  Christians fight for free speech rights.  Christians fight for the rights of Christian students in our public schools, colleges, and universities.

Want to guess why you only hear about one or maybe two issues??  

[Splashdown]

Interestingly--and maybe tangentially related--I've read in a few places where the Catholic Church is recruiting more exorcitsts.

Satan is real. Sin is real. We ignore it at our peril.

[Jasonw560]

I'm torn on this one. On one hand, there have been studies done showing a central section of homosexual's brains are the same as a straight woman's, and a lesbian's is the same size as a man. There's other tests showing different hormone levels, etc. Also, I don't think many of the homosexuals want to choose the stigma and ostracizing that's prevelant today.

But then, many of the ones I know either came from either fatherless homes or didn't get along with their male role models. With that, they were effeminate to start with, and their situation just exacerbated it.

Should this, then, be treated by Christians as a mental illness?

I know the LCMS's stand on it. For the most part, I believe that traditional marriage should be between a man and a woman. However, if they want to leave their gov't. benefits to their survivor on death, I say so be it. Call it a civil union, because it can't be sanctioned by God, and not truly a marriage.

[WinOne4TheGipper]

Well, I post all my sermons on the Internet in various places, including Free Republic (search under the keyword "sermon"). And you can find them all at my church's website, stmatthewbt.org. I also have a blog at steadfastlutherans.org.

Thanks for your kind words.

Do you have a Facebook page?

[dixierose]

Well, I post all my sermons on the Internet in various places, including Free Republic (search under the keyword "sermon"). And you can find them all at my church's website, stmatthewbt.org. I also have a blog at steadfastlutherans.org.

Thanks for your kind words.

I've really enjoyed your replies in this thread. I have bookmarked your blog and will be a frequent reader. Thanks!

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

my thinking has always been that gay people are born that way, not all of them because I do think it's possible that some make that choice. . . . So my questions are this, isn't it possible that God knows that some people will be gay, and since God is a loving and forgiving God, that a gay person isn't really committing a sin? isn't it possible that gay people were actually born that way? and if a person leads a good life, they care about others, do people really think God wouldn't forgive that person for certain transgressions if homosexuality is indeed a sin?

Bunny sees hot babe.

Bunny thinks, "Damn, that is one hot babe!"

'Tis a bunny's nature to like hot babes.

The bunny was born this way.

But then the bunny reads "You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Bunny thinks, "Man! What a gip!"

The hand never did what the heart didn't first desire.

Does Divine Will put itself at war with Nature or is Nature at war with Divine Will?

[Kyle Ricky]

'‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

This is the probably the number one commandment that is broken. You wouldn't be human if you didn't break it.