Sun may soon have four poles, say researchers

[JohnnyReb]

Stop laughing for just a minute.

Last night, PBS had a program about the sun. One thing they mentioned was a solar flare in 1859 that was real bad. If we had a similar one now, it could shut down the national electric grid. It could burn out transformer and cause us to be in the dark for months, possibly years. Oh, and the sun's magnetic poles flip every 7 years.

Now back to your regularly scheduled laughing.

[CG6468]

Stop laughing for just a minute.

Last night, PBS had a program about the sun. One thing they mentioned was a solar flare in 1859 that was real bad. If we had a similar one now, it could shut down the national electric grid. It could burn out transformer and cause us to be in the dark for months, possibly years. Oh, and the sun's magnetic poles flip every 7 years.

Now back to your regularly scheduled laughing.

Didn't see the program, but a big solar flare, or one that came directly at the earth, could be devastating, knocking out all satellite operations (including the Internet, GPS, TV programming, and even short wave communications.) I'm really uncomfortable that the world has become so dependent on satellite communications.

[Trip]

Stop laughing for just a minute.

Last night, PBS had a program about the sun. One thing they mentioned was a solar flare in 1859 that was real bad. If we had a similar one now, it could shut down the national electric grid. It could burn out transformer and cause us to be in the dark for months, possibly years. Oh, and the sun's magnetic poles flip every 7 years.

Now back to your regularly scheduled laughing.

1859

    * Nine years after California became the 31st state.
    * The year Oregon becomes the 33rd state.
    * Two years before the American Civil War
    * Eleven years before Edison built the DC generator
    * Seventeen years before Alexander Graham Bell invents the telephone.

We had had the telegraph for about 15 years. But man, we were stylin' with that telegraph!

In early September 1859, telegraph wires suddenly shorted out in the United States and Europe, igniting widespread fires. Colorful aurora, normally visible only in polar regions, were seen as far south as Rome and Hawaii.

In 1859, what caused the solar storm to be so strong was a number of factors. The Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) traveled at exceptionally high speeds. It took only 17 hours and 40 minutes to go from the Sun to Earth." Solar storms typically take two to four days to traverse the 93 million miles. The magnetic polarization was exceptionally intense and, even more importantly, the magnetic field was oriented opposite to that of earth's fields. In 1859 the earth's natural magnetic defenses were overwhelmed.


During the 1859 solar flare-up, solar observers logged almost an entire minute during which the amount of sunlight doubled at the region of the flare. "Such a strong white-light flare has never been seen since," says Paal Brekke, SOHO deputy project scientist. "So if this type of flare happened, yes we would know right away."[1].

This solar storm in 1859 was 3 times the size of anything we've seen in modern memory:

• — In 1989, the sun unleashed a tempest that knocked out power to all of Quebec, Canada.
• — A remarkable 2003 rampage included 10 major solar flares over a two-week period, knocking out two Earth-orbiting satellites and crippling an instrument aboard a Mars orbiter.

The Scale of the 1859 Storm:

•    To get an idea of the strength of the 1859 storm, you have to wade into nT's for a moment.
  
  
      A space storm's impact is measured in nano-Teslas (nT), Brekke explained. The lower the figure, the more powerful the storm. A moderate storm can be around -100 nT; extreme and damaging storms have been logged at around -300 nT.
  
  
      The 1989 coronal mass ejection that knocked out power to all of Quebec, Canada measured -589 nT, Brekke said. The 1859 perfect storm was estimated to have been -1,760 nT. Brekke used three exclamation points in his e-mail delivering that number.
  
  
      People on the ground are generally safe even in the worst space weather. But technology could be in trouble when the next super storm hits. [2]

2012

The next peak in solar activity is expected to come sometime around 2012.

In January 2009 a study from the National Academy of Sciences outlines grim possibilities on Earth for a worst-case scenario solar storm. [3]

The U.S. power grid could be shut down for months.

Damage to power grids and other communications systems could be catastrophic, the scientists conclude, with effects leading to a potential loss of governmental control of the situation.

Anyone noticed conspicuous activity of the U.S. government regarding martial law lately?

[NHSparky]

Jesus, that tinfoil on your head is cutting off circulation to your ****ing brain, Trip.

[Trip]

Jesus, that tinfoil on your head is cutting off circulation to your ****ing brain, Trip.

So I cite nothing but referenced facts, no speculation whatsoever, and you find some way insert tin foil and conspiranoia?

Maybe you missed our Fascist-in-Chief's recent Presidential Directive regarding martial law ... even in time of peace, and the fact that what the U.S. government has been doing lately is considerably beyond SOP.  

The speculation here is that you've a brain of your own; it does have a valid use beyond being a place-holder.    I wish you the best O'luck with that.

[Crazy Horse]

So I cite nothing but referenced facts, no speculation whatsoever, and you find some way insert tin foil and conspiranoia?

Maybe you missed our Fascist-in-Chief's recent Presidential Directive regarding martial law ... even in time of peace, and the fact that what the U.S. government has been doing lately is considerably beyond SOP.  

The speculation here is that you've a brain of your own; it does have a valid use beyond being a place-holder.    I wish you the best O'luck with that.

Actually Trip, you would be better off to leave a comment like this out

Anyone noticed conspicuous activity of the U.S. government regarding martial law lately?

The above from you is nothing but speculation, just stick to the facts and nobody will mention conspiracy or tin foil.

Also please inform me of the exact SOP the goverment uses.

[CG6468]

WOW! MARTIAL LAW!!

I'm anxious to see documented proof of this! And not some shit from a lib site, either.

[Trip]

Actually Trip, you would be better off to leave a comment like this out

The above from you is nothing but speculation, just stick to the facts and nobody will mention conspiracy or tin foil.

Also please inform me of the exact SOP the goverment uses.

You must have missed the executive order on March 13th, The National Defense Resources Preparedness Executive Order, that gave the President the unilateral ability to declare martial law in time of peace, only for the assertion of a national security interest, and capability to take possession of any private property, and to nationalize any industry deemed appropriate.  Naaa, no problems here at all.


Then there's the NDAA, and the more recent push for Internet security that even has the lefties over at ACLU in an uproar.

And this may be of news, but the operative SOP for the U.S. Government is generally referred to as the "U.S. Constitution".

It's not at all 'speculation', though it does require a minimal degree of awareness as to what is going on.

[Crazy Horse]

You must have missed the executive order on March 13th, The National Defense Resources Preparedness Executive Order, that gave the President the unilateral ability to declare martial law in time of peace, only for the assertion of a national security interest, and capability to take possession of any private property, and to nationalize any industry deemed appropriate.


Then there's the NDAA, and the more recent push for Internet security that even has the lefties over at CLU in an uproar.

And this may be of news, but the operative SOP for the U.S. Government is generally referred to as the "U.S. Constitution".

I guess you were preoccupied with American Idol and fishing for navel lint...

Okay this is your only warning on this.

Stick to the facts and the op.  The op has nothing to do with martial law or executive orders.  This is the end of that subject matter in this forum.  If you can't stick to the facts, then don't post.  You want to post things about executive orders that have been around a lot longer than Obama and specualtion on them knowing that a massive solar flare is coming and are making plans.........post it in the correct forum.

[Trip]

Okay this is your only warning on this.

Stick to the facts and the op.  The op has nothing to do with martial law or executive orders.  This is the end of that subject matter in this forum.  If you can't stick to the facts, then don't post.  You want to post things about executive orders that have been around a lot longer than Obama and specualtion on them knowing that a massive solar flare is coming and are making plans.........post it in the correct forum.

Crazy Horse, it seems that some have misunderstood the intent of my vague reference in one sentence to "martial law". For that I apologize.

I have no intention whatsoever to discuss "martial law" in this thread, nor its progressive enablement over a series of administrations going back as far as the 1950's. Also when I indicated "....activity ... regarding martial law", I was not in any way referencing its current implementation. I guess I can see how the phrase might be misinterpreted to involve some sort of current enactment, however such an interpretation really does not fit in with anything I had said previously, nor the discussion of a possible future impact of a strong solar storm, making that interpretation extremely out of context.

I simply was recognizing "the fact" of the ability to enact of Martial law, in the event of social collapse.  Believing anything more than this is only the reader projecting an interpretation that I did not intend to indicate, and nowhere even implied.

Crazy Horse, given your own recognition  that the ability enact martial law has existed across numerous Presidential administrations, I would submit that you also recognize the potential to institute martial law as "a fact", and not merely some fanciful fabrication.

My vague, one sentence, reference to martial law, was only the logical extension from the cited reference immediately prior to my comment, of a 2009 study commissioned by NASA, undertaken by the National Academy of Sciences, and reported by FOX News, entitled "Powerful Solar Storm Could Shut Down U.S. for Months":

• Heading: 'Command and control might be lost'
  
  
      Such widespread power outages, though expected to be a rare possibility, would affect other vital systems.
  
      "Impacts would be felt on interdependent infrastructures with, for example, potable water distribution affected within several hours; perishable foods and medications lost in 12-24 hours; immediate or eventual loss of heating/air conditioning, sewage disposal, phone service, transportation, fuel resupply and so on," the report states.
  
      Outages could take months to fix, the researchers say. Banks might close, and trade with other countries might halt.
  
      "Emergency services would be strained, and command and control might be lost," write the researchers, led by Daniel Baker, director of the Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics at the University of Colorado in Boulder.
  

While the enactment of martial law is not specifically referenced by this FOX article, I am secure in the fact that conditions resulting in the simultaneous collapse of power, food, water, medicine, banking, communication, and transportation systems, all of which are referenced, necessitates the institution of martial law.  It is no great leap that the "loss of command and control" requires the enablement of some other system of command and control, with such a system obviously being martial law itself.

I apologize if my vague reference to "martial law" gave the impression I somehow intended to discuss the political merits of martial law in a science forum, or seemed to imply that martial law was in any way being implemented at this time.  Neither of those were ever my intent.

[CG6468]

Trip, get the **** off of my thread. Start your own if you want to keep it up.

[formerlurker]

    Trip's entire world is immersed in conspiracy and doomsday theories.   

[CG6468]

   Trip's entire world is immersed in conspiracy and doomsday theories.   

I hate it when someone hijacks my thread. 

[dutch508]

I hate it when someone hijacks my thread. 

BOOBIEZ!

[CG6468]

<<<<<SIGHHHHH>>>>>

[Trip]

I hate it when someone hijacks my thread. 

Hijack your thread.. you mean by actually discussing science? And keep what up, exactly? What cause do you have for such vitriol?

In the first 25 responses to your thread, not-a-one beyond EagleKeeper had any real contribution to the subject matter except feeble  attempts at humor. Your own contribution to the thread in the OP itself, beyond referencing a brief article, was to indicate it was "snuggle time".  No one has even addressed what the implications of "four poles" might be for earth, which is the topic of the thread, but not anywhere actually referenced in your OP.

My only "guilt" here is to respond factually, with supporting references, to JohnnyReb's comment about the 1859 CME, You also chose to respond to JonnhyReb's comment about that CME, but seemed to limit the scope of the damage to "electronic communications".    My response was intending to demonstrate the scope of that possible disaster extends well beyond just electronic communications... and, yes, even involves the possibility of the need to institute martial law. 

One would think you'd actually be grateful... unless you believe the purpose of "your thread" is to display a command of double entendres ... in the name of 'science'.

And generally, if anyone believes my post has anything to do with "conspiracy" or unsupported "doomsday theories", then their beef is with NASA, the National Academy of Sciences, and a whole array of science institutions, not with me.

Here's an article from NASA detailing just how interconnected and vulnerable our infrastructure is to a large CME:   
Severe Space Weather: Social and Economic Impacts.

[Eupher]

Well, far be it from me to wade in on a science topic (I'm a musician, after all, and what I know about science could fill a thimble -- maybe), but as we're now slinging shit around, I figure I can get involved with that activity too.

I'll probably get some of that stuck to me, but oh, well. That's what soap was made for.

Trip, in reviewing the OP, it would be my own perception based on several months of good-natured ribbing and humor that CG and I, and others, have routinely engaged in -- never "feeble", mind you, sometimes rather gut-busting if I say so myself -- that CG's OP had NOTHING to do with science.

It had to do with glowbull warming. You know, that chicanery that some of the more unscrupulous "scientists" have engaged in in order to further their respective agendas.

But I dare say, you wouldn't be in tune with that, since you have used this web site for your own personal depository for all manner of science -- most of which is far beyond me.

You see, I like to learn a thing or three while on these pages and don't normally have a problem with somebody swooping in and making grandiose, scientific statements once in awhile. Gives me pause to think about the subject at hand.

So it ain't all bad -- just a little unsettling at times.

But don't talk trash about how some of us make light of "science" --

Or the utter lack of it.

Have a great day!

[Trip]

Here is an interesting commentary on the "Carrington Effect", named for the British Astronomer Richard Carrington, who witnessed the 1859 CME event.

Warning: This will likely be the only warning you will get!

[txradioguy]

Actually Trip, you would be better off to leave a comment like this out

The above from you is nothing but speculation, just stick to the facts and nobody will mention conspiracy or tin foil.

Also please inform me of the exact SOP the goverment uses.

 

[txradioguy]

Okay this is your only warning on this.

Stick to the facts and the op.  The op has nothing to do with martial law or executive orders.  This is the end of that subject matter in this forum.  If you can't stick to the facts, then don't post.  You want to post things about executive orders that have been around a lot longer than Obama and specualtion on them knowing that a massive solar flare is coming and are making plans.........post it in the correct forum.

He won't do it.  You've shown him and made him look bad...hence the retarded cheap shots at the end of his last couple posts....now his ego won't let him do anything else but post long winded sermons on how right he is and how stupid the rest of us are.

[obumazombie]

He won't do it.  You've shown him and made him look bad...hence the retarded cheap shots at the end of his last couple posts....now his ego won't let him do anything else but post long winded sermons on how right he is and how stupid the rest of us are.

The same could be said for owebuma.

[Billy_Bob]

I see that most here have no grasp on the concept of what a diffusion of the suns magnetic field would have on the earth.

So let me enlighten you a bit if i may. Here is an exercise that will show you what dangers there are.


Take a compass and set it on your kitchen table. then take two magnets with opposing polarity just far enough apart you can old them still and then slide them nearer the compass.   The end result is a vassolating effect of the compass (which is another magnet). Now imagine the earth doing what that compass is doing rapidly.

This will result in earth wobble, rapid change in weather and wind patterns, tide changes, oceanic water flows... etc...

You all make lite of the potential problems while they could be potentially devastating to the earth and its INHABITANTS!  Sadly when the sun goes into one of these states the geologic history shows the earth receives massive CME blasts due to the suns instability. This also weakens the earths magnetic field making it more prone to CME effect. The Wobbles change patterns on the earth and generally precede ice ages..

While Trip's posts are lengthy, he is dead on accurate... take the time to read his links, after all this is supposed to be a forum about science... disparagement helps no one...

PS: geologic time scales are interesting animals except when an ice age starts.  they start abruptly and in as short as 30 years spans.. were at 15 now with no warming...  1998 is when the suns instability started...  Food for thought..

Sea Ice increasing massively this year..

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/n_stddev_timeseries2.png

[formerlurker]

I see that most here have no grasp on the concept of what a diffusion of the suns magnetic field would have on the earth.

 

[Billy_Bob]

 

Yawning wont help you...

Ignorance by choice?  bad move... IMHO

[CG6468]

Hijack your thread.. you mean by actually discussing science? And keep what up, exactly? What cause do you have for such vitriol?

In the first 25 responses to your thread, not-a-one beyond EagleKeeper had any real contribution to the subject matter except feeble  attempts at humor. Your own contribution to the thread in the OP itself, beyond referencing a brief article, was to indicate it was "snuggle time".  No one has even addressed what the implications of "four poles" might be for earth, which is the topic of the thread, but not anywhere actually referenced in your OP.

My only "guilt" here is to respond factually, with supporting references, to JohnnyReb's comment about the 1859 CME, You also chose to respond to JonnhyReb's comment about that CME, but seemed to limit the scope of the damage to "electronic communications".    My response was intending to demonstrate the scope of that possible disaster extends well beyond just electronic communications... and, yes, even involves the possibility of the need to institute martial law.  

One would think you'd actually be grateful... unless you believe the purpose of "your thread" is to display a command of double entendres ... in the name of 'science'.

And generally, if anyone believes my post has anything to do with "conspiracy" or unsupported "doomsday theories", then their beef is with NASA, the National Academy of Sciences, and a whole array of science institutions, not with me.

Here's an article from NASA detailing just how interconnected and vulnerable our infrastructure is to a large CME:  
Severe Space Weather: Social and Economic Impacts.

Stick it, dweeb. It's my thread. If you want to use 5000 words when 50 will do, start your own thread. You aren't capable of comprehending to what I was referring.

I'm done with you and your tripe. You are now in the permanent INGORE status. Congratulations.