Author Topic: Creationism Discussion  (Read 8651 times)

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Offline dutch508

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2012, 08:37:24 PM »
but if god supposedly created earth 6000 yrs ago, that would be "all history" not just human history.

with the exception of a few nutcase fundamentalists, and a few of those being muslim, no one believes the claim of 6000 yearsago.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2012, 09:29:22 PM »
but if god supposedly created earth 6000 yrs ago, that would be "all history" not just human history.

The bible makes no claim to speak for the peoples of India, China, pre-colonized America etc. Some of their contiguous histories stretch further into the past than the presumed ages of the geneologies.

And as far as the Genesis account goes: the rabbis teach that a key passage is "tohu v' bohu" translated as "without form and void." Their traditions maintain that the earth was in existence but had been reduced from an earlier state of being. This doesn't necessarily mean the earth was a quivering ball of jelly hurtling through space but rather it had suffered a cataclysm that made it uninhabitable until Providence began life anew. The rabbis speculate in the usual marvelous rabbinic manner as to what this prior world may have been but despite their wild ponderings they agree that what is important is that Humanity's chapter of The Great Cosmic Saga begins with the renewal. This is when man is create and this is what man is meant to know. Anything else becomes a distraction.
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Offline Maxiest

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 07:53:47 AM »
with the exception of a few nutcase fundamentalists, and a few of those being muslim, no one believes the claim of 6000 yearsago.

I am sorry but I disagree.  Unless of course you are calling most Christians fundamentalists.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 09:36:46 AM »
I am sorry but I disagree.  Unless of course you are calling most Christians fundamentalists.

That statement, in and of itself, is as meaningful as Algore's appeal to scientific consensus.

The claim the geneologies are the only way to assign an age to the earth is ludicrous. Not even the geneologies make that claim. To defend them on those grounds isn't to defend scripture but to defend an interpretation of scripture that is as juvenile as the anti-theistic taunts that Tim Tebow ought not ever lose a football game..
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Offline Gratiot

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 10:55:25 AM »
Depends if you believe in the bible I guess.

Biblical age is about 6000 Years.  Those who don't believe in the bible say its about 4.5-4.6 billion years old.  Either way, a 100 years of data is minuscule no matter which of those you believe.

Please look up the type of logic you're using, do you really believe that manipulation is appropriate to spread the Gospel of Christ?

Do you expect to convert or bring forth a revival, under false pretenses?  

I am sorry but I disagree.  Unless of course you are calling most Christians fundamentalists.

Are you disagreeing on the labeling or implied percentage of belief?

Disregard the gallup or barna surveys on individual beliefs, and look up the official denominational beliefs.  

I love history.  I have read tons of history books from this century.  I don't read much about cats and dogs in the books I have read.  I don't think dinosaurs where the "subject" at hand in the bible just like dogs aren't in most the Civil War books I have read.

In light of the first quote... this shift in logic, could pose problematic.

Offline Maxiest

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 11:42:16 AM »
Please look up the type of logic you're using, do you really believe that manipulation is appropriate to spread the Gospel of Christ?

Do you expect to convert or bring forth a revival, under false pretenses?  

Are you disagreeing on the labeling or implied percentage of belief?

Disregard the gallup or barna surveys on individual beliefs, and look up the official denominational beliefs.  

In light of the first quote... this shift in logic, could pose problematic.

I don't plan on converting a single soul as I am not some bible thumping robot.  I could care less.
I am stating what I have learned and read over the years.  Am I wrong?  Possibly...  I am no scholar.
You keep speaking of the "spread of gospel."  I am here to spread nothing, I chimed in on a comment made in another thread expressing what I "believe" through my limited knowledge.
You taking two quotes about two different statements making two different points trying to prove my quotes "problematic" is problematic in itself.
 
"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither; the society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great measure of both."

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."

"We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork."

-Milton Friedman

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2012, 12:18:34 PM »
I don't plan on converting a single soul as I am not some bible thumping robot.[

Then why the inexplicable and observably, factually indefensible assertion that the bible puts the earth's age at ~6,000 years?

Presumably, the geneologies show only 6,000 years so if the earth is more than 6,000 years then the geneologies are incorrect and if the geneologies are incorrect then all of scripture is in jeopardy of being indicted as erroneous. If the bible is erroneous then presumably it can be dismissed without regard.

At least that's how I've come to understand the need to defend this silliness.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 04:28:07 PM »
Then why the inexplicable and observably, factually indefensible assertion that the bible puts the earth's age at ~6,000 years?

Presumably, the geneologies show only 6,000 years so if the earth is more than 6,000 years then the geneologies are incorrect and if the geneologies are incorrect then all of scripture is in jeopardy of being indicted as erroneous. If the bible is erroneous then presumably it can be dismissed without regard.

At least that's how I've come to understand the need to defend this silliness.
One important point on the age of the world is the time Adam and Eve spent in the Garden.  No one has any idea if that was a few days or a million years.  All that is known is that nothing on Earth died until after they ate of the forbidden fruit.  There is an age given for Adam, but it makes no sense for a man to count his age if he will never die.  We don't even know that there were seasons marking years in the Garden, so why would Adam start counting his years before he was evicted?

On the other hand, science has proven that all humans on this earth arose from one specific female about 13,000 years ago.   

When and if humans ever learn enough, it will be discovered that Genesis is absolutely correct.  God was the only eyewitness, and He told us what He did.
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 04:45:51 PM »
...

On the other hand, science has proven that all humans on this earth arose from one specific female about 13,000 years ago.   

...

That is somewhat difficult to believe given that there are fossilised bones that are arguably human which are 20K + years old being found in places here.  Wiki link but you can follow the sources cited in the article if wiki is disregarded as a direct source.

Offline dutch508

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2012, 05:01:11 PM »
I am sorry but I disagree.  Unless of course you are calling most Christians fundamentalists.

lost your point.
Are you saying you dissagree with my statement that only a few Christians believe the earth is only 600o years old, or that only a few are fundies, or that only a few fundamentalists (including muslims) believe it?

Not being a dick, but I want to make sure I understand your statement before I reply to it.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2012, 05:11:29 PM »
On the other hand, science has proven that all humans on this earth arose from one specific female about 13,000 years ago.

Asians emigrated to the Americas at least 20,000 years ago, maybe as long ago as 30,000.

This would, of course, be AFTER humanity left Africa and the Fertile Crescent, moved into and past the Indian sub-continent, into Asia, built-up and moved North.

Quote
When and if humans ever learn enough, it will be discovered that Genesis is absolutely correct.  God was the only eyewitness, and He told us what He did.

Absolutely correct in what regard? As a descriptor of the poverty of the human condition? Absolutely.

As a stenographic record of a minute-by-minute account of talking reptiles taunting two lonely humans? Maybe not so much.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 05:15:28 PM by TVDOC »
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2012, 06:07:59 PM »
Asians emigrated to the Americas at least 20,000 years ago, maybe as long ago as 30,000.

This would, of course, be AFTER humanity left Africa and the Fertile Crescent, moved into and past the Indian sub-continent, into Asia, built-up and moved North.

Absolutely correct in what regard? As a descriptor of the poverty of the human condition? Absolutely.

As a stenographic record of a minute-by-minute account of talking reptiles taunting two lonely humans? Maybe not so much.
Absolutely correct in all details.  As I am sure the Flood actually happened, I don't believe our dating systems are correct.  It takes too much faith in human intelligence for me to believe that humans are right and God's word wrong.  At some point, humans will know enough to be able to go back to Genesis and realize that every detail is correct.
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Offline Maxiest

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2012, 08:13:31 AM »
lost your point.
Are you saying you dissagree with my statement that only a few Christians believe the earth is only 600o years old, or that only a few are fundies, or that only a few fundamentalists (including muslims) believe it?

Not being a dick, but I want to make sure I understand your statement before I reply to it.

Disagreeing with your statement that only a few Christians believe the earth is ~6000 years old.  And your calling anyone that believes this to be a fundamentalist.  So you are saying that all Christians are fundamentalist?
"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither; the society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great measure of both."

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."

"We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork."

-Milton Friedman

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2012, 08:34:29 AM »
So you are saying that all Christians are fundamentalist?

This is either:

A) a poorly conveyed thought or

B) a tautological statement

Not everyone who professes being a Christian agrees with the idea the earth is only 6,000 years old and near as I can tell the Bible makes no such demands, not even abstractly.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Maxiest

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Re: Creationism Discussion
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2012, 08:41:13 AM »
This is either:

A) a poorly conveyed thought or

B) a tautological statement

Not everyone who professes being a Christian agrees with the idea the earth is only 6,000 years old and near as I can tell the Bible makes no such demands, not even abstractly.

I am saying a majority of Christians I know believe in a young earth and are not fundamentalist.
"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither; the society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great measure of both."

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."

"We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork."

-Milton Friedman