Angels and Aliens

[seahorse513]

Hmmmm, well the author, whom I have known for all my 46 years.
He brings up alot of interesting things, that we should keep an open mind about, including that we have had et's perhaps visit us, and if so, how do we open lines of communication with them.
Both books are around 95 pages each.
He does mention Roswell, other situations, people and places..

www.extraterrestrial-thebook.com

[Erasmus]

But I suppose that plays back into our original thread:
Why do people reject one thing when the very thing they are looking for fulfills their supposed need, only it comes attached with moral qualifiers?
What is it about moral qualifiers that so terrify people into irrational and sometimes self-destructive ends?

You've hit the nail on the head here.  I'd guess vanity and arrogance make us think that we've stumbled onto a new way to have our immoral cookie and our flourishing society, too.  I think they're mutually exclusive.

That societies thrive when they are most moral and most productive is not a coincidence.  While someone like Kant may not have found the traditional moral argument conclusive, it is to me compelling to the point of belief in God, who designed all of this so that morality and hard work cause nations to flourish.  It just doesn't work any other way.  Human history repeats itself, and we repeat the same mistakes and fail to learn the lessons consistently.

We can see that moral behavior actually works, and that only a certain brand of morality works.  History provides us with the empirical evidence.

I like Aldous Huxley's quote:

"We are living now, not in the delicious intoxication induced by the early successes of science, but in a rather grisly morning-after, when it has become apparent that what triumphant science has done hitherto is to improve the means for achieving unimproved or actually deteriorated ends."

And he died before we put a man on the moon and Gore invented the internet.  Sorry for the rambling.  It's one of my favorite topics.

[Erasmus]

Hmmmm, well the author, whom I have known for all my 46 years.
He brings up alot of interesting things, that we should keep an open mind about, including that we have had et's perhaps visit us, and if so, how do we open lines of communication with them.
Both books are around 95 pages each.
He does mention Roswell, other situations, people and places..

www.extraterrestrial-thebook.com

Not to beg for a spoiler, but what is the author's take on God?

[seahorse513]

He is a Christian. My sister and I both went to a catholic school. He was raised in the Church of England. He believes God helps those who help themselves. He also feels that we, as a human species should open our minds and hearts and accept that there are perhaps peaceful beings out in the galaxies, that can help us: Whether it applies, to the enviroment, habitat,or offer other sources of alternative energy

[vesta111]

He is a Christian. My sister and I both went to a catholic school. He was raised in the Church of England. He believes God helps those who help themselves. He also feels that we, as a human species should open our minds and hearts and accept that there are perhaps peaceful beings out in the galaxies, that can help us: Whether it applies, to the enviroment, habitat,or offer other sources of alternative energy

Sea, I was raised to believe there was a great war in the heavens. God had a rebellion on his hands, one of his most trusted Angels for some reason wanted to usurp God and have their own way

   [This sounds like science fiction] ---------  So God managed to cast out the Devil and his followers into hell, yet in the story of Job, the Devil and God still were on speaking terms, like old friends and betting on the outcome of what would some poor man do when he lost his family. Would this Victim stay with God or go to the Devil. 

A most horrid story as the Job lost his wife and family to disease and what not, all as part of the bet between God and the Devil.  Oh yes Job was rewarded with a new wife and lots of children, but I wonder about the Innocent first family involved.   

In fact the devil was allowed to test Jesus a time or too, the devil did not stay in hell but was allowed by God to walk the earth.     In fact The Devil was allowed to be on earth as the first humans came, to temp Eve to  the tree of knowledge that only God and Adam knew about. Seems no one told her about the the forbidden fruit she had not talked to God and Adam never told her not to go near the tree.

The question in my mind is,  is Earth the Hell God sent the Devil to, why is he still wandering about in the times of the Bible and into our time ???   

Sea, ask your friend about this as they seem to believe in ---those out there.    Were we an experiment from those who seeded our planet, did those check on us from time to time to see how earth was doing???

Good topic, Sea, one that can range from Religion to Science and on to a hundred different roads to follow .

[seahorse513]

Vesta, The Author is my father...When this topic came up, I took it as  a sign to help either promote his book or give some food for thought. I find many individuals on this board are very intelligent, like our dear friend , Sparky, and open minded like our dear friend , Franksolitch..
Having intelligent discussions, with open minds and open hearts are invigorating for the mind and soul...

[vesta111]

Vesta, The Author is my father...When this topic came up, I took it as  a sign to help either promote his book or give some food for thought. I find many individuals on this board are very intelligent, like our dear friend , Sparky, and open minded like our dear friend , Franksolitch..
Having intelligent discussions, with open minds and open hearts are invigorating for the mind and soul...

Sea, your Dad and my Mom would be interesting to listen to debating this subject.

Mom has no fear of death at her age, her fear is that the day after she dies life will be found --Out there-- and she will never know.

[ChuckJ]

Sea, I was raised to believe there was a great war in the heavens. God had a rebellion on his hands, one of his most trusted Angels for some reason wanted to usurp God and have their own way

   [This sounds like science fiction] ---------  So God managed to cast out the Devil and his followers into hell, yet in the story of Job, the Devil and God still were on speaking terms, like old friends and betting on the outcome of what would some poor man do when he lost his family. Would this Victim stay with God or go to the Devil. 

A most horrid story as the Job lost his wife and family to disease and what not, all as part of the bet between God and the Devil.  Oh yes Job was rewarded with a new wife and lots of children, but I wonder about the Innocent first family involved.   

In fact the devil was allowed to test Jesus a time or too, the devil did not stay in hell but was allowed by God to walk the earth.     In fact The Devil was allowed to be on earth as the first humans came, to temp Eve to  the tree of knowledge that only God and Adam knew about. Seems no one told her about the the forbidden fruit she had not talked to God and Adam never told her not to go near the tree.

The question in my mind is,  is Earth the Hell God sent the Devil to, why is he still wandering about in the times of the Bible and into our time ???   

Sea, ask your friend about this as they seem to believe in ---those out there.    Were we an experiment from those who seeded our planet, did those check on us from time to time to see how earth was doing???

Good topic, Sea, one that can range from Religion to Science and on to a hundred different roads to follow .

A couple of points. Eve knew not to eat the fruit.  Genesis 3:2-3 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

As far as I know there is no where in the Bible that says that the devil has already been cast into hell. He was just cast out of heaven.

[MrsSmith]

A couple of points. Eve knew not to eat the fruit.  Genesis 3:2-3 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

As far as I know there is no where in the Bible that says that the devil has already been cast into hell. He was just cast out of heaven.

And Job's wife didn't die, rather she remained to nag him to turn on God.  And the kids were wiped out by a tornado, I believe, not disease.  I often wonder exactly what Bible Vesta reads...   

[Duke Nukum]

I think the atheist/materialist of the type SGT Bunny describes can accept aliens simply because the universe is vast, if life exists here, it must exist elsewhere in the universe. Of course, until we have a sufficiently developed technology or aliens decide to grace us with their presence, it remains unproven.

When people leave religion behind, they do not leave behind the need to believe that men are essentially sinful in nature. Having rejected God, the only hope to cling to is aliens intellectually advanced enough to lead us out of our own inner darkness. Since, in their mind, there is no longer a "God" to save us, the great probability that alien life exists is the only hope, until disproved, to cling to.

I'm not sure if nagging moralistic angels are the reason the type of person SGT Bunny described rejects the existence of angels, I think it is simply too much baggage associated with angels over the years, be it religious or New Age. Or, it may simply be rejection of a part of a whole that has already been rejected. Why even think about the messengers of God when God has already been eliminated from the picture.

[vesta111]

I think the atheist/materialist of the type SGT Bunny describes can accept aliens simply because the universe is vast, if life exists here, it must exist elsewhere in the universe. Of course, until we have a sufficiently developed technology or aliens decide to grace us with their presence, it remains unproven.

When people leave religion behind, they do not leave behind the need to believe that men are essentially sinful in nature. Having rejected God, the only hope to cling to is aliens intellectually advanced enough to lead us out of our own inner darkness. Since, in their mind, there is no longer a "God" to save us, the great probability that alien life exists is the only hope, until disproved, to cling to.

I'm not sure if nagging moralistic angels are the reason the type of person SGT Bunny described rejects the existence of angels, I think it is simply too much baggage associated with angels over the years, be it religious or New Age. Or, it may simply be rejection of a part of a whole that has already been rejected. Why even think about the messengers of God when God has already been eliminated from the picture.

Don't know about all this, but studying the Eskimo culture, these people managed to raise children that had no concept of theft.  They could be starving to death but not even think about the stealing the neighbors food. Food. fish drying on the lines at 50 feet but no way would they steal the food.

Interesting culture, interesting life style, how they survived , perhaps the most civilized people on earth. They had their faith, most of their lives were built on faith.     

They were doing well and thriving until we with our faith invaded and brought along disease and practices that caused the life style to slowly die out.

It seems that we who believe in Christ or Mohammad, have invaded  and done nothing but harm.   

Faith has to be united with the living conditions of the people, their history and not interfear with with the peoples survival.

[Duke Nukum]

Maybe morality derives from a desire for a civil society and has little to do with angels. Maybe angels being Messengers of God simply put forth what would work best to keep the peace to a group of people who may have felt like the OWS of their day, allegedly just escaping slavery in Egypt.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Maybe morality derives from a desire for a civil society and has little to do with angels. Maybe angels being Messengers of God simply put forth what would work best to keep the peace to a group of people who may have felt like the OWS of their day, allegedly just escaping slavery in Egypt.

But this is where I think the anti-theists center their resistance.

If there is a moral messanger that implies a moral message writer. They don't resist the notion of angels because they despise angels but because they despise the notion of a moral and active god.

Consider how many atheists could wax romantically about alternate dimensions but they bristle at the notion of Heaven or Hell. Again, it isn't because they are opposed to discussing different planes of being but because Heaven and Hell have moral foundations while Earth-X has no implied morality.

[Duke Nukum]

But this is where I think the anti-theists center their resistance.

If there is a moral messanger that implies a moral message writer. They don't resist the notion of angels because they despise angels but because they despise the notion of a moral and active god.

Consider how many atheists could wax romantically about alternate dimensions but they bristle at the notion of Heaven or Hell. Again, it isn't because they are opposed to discussing different planes of being but because Heaven and Hell have moral foundations while Earth-X has no implied morality.

Off topic but I am curious now: Do you know if they bristle at the idea of an Atlantis?

I kind of bristle at Atlantis, mostly because of cheesy TV shows, like The Man from Atlantis. But I can accept the idea of a highly advanced civilization in the remote past that came to some cataclysmic end.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Off topic but I am curious now: Do you know if they bristle at the idea of an Atlantis?

I kind of bristle at Atlantis, mostly because of cheesy TV shows, like The Man from Atlantis. But I can accept the idea of a highly advanced civilization in the remote past that came to some cataclysmic end.

New Agers--to my mind a sub-set of anti-Christianists--revel in the idea of Atlantis. What's not to love? The civilization before civilization. Wondrous technology. Peace, Wisdom. Art. Enlightenment. Lost through no fault of their own.

I can't help but think that to them it's better way to thumb your nose at the xtians than to say there is such a thing as man-made Heaven on Earth if only it weren't for some non-morality based accident (Rising ocean? Global warming perhaps?  ).

Look at all the creeds anti-xtians scoop-up under their umbrella of "tolerance." So long as you say, "Anyone can be saved/enlightened/whatever" you qualify. It's only those who say, "Um-m-m, actually there are standards and we don't make the rules" that are not to be tolerated. In other words, it is  morality that refuses to tolerate morality.

The exception of course are Muslims who get a free pass because the actively kill xtians and jews. Allies of convenience, really, as the ally of the Muslim hates xtians and jews because he lives amongst them and not amongst Muslims.

Who someone hates is as important as what they profess to love. In fact, it is the other side of the same coin.

[vesta111]

New Agers--to my mind a sub-set of anti-Christianists--revel in the idea of Atlantis. What's not to love? The civilization before civilization. Wondrous technology. Peace, Wisdom. Art. Enlightenment. Lost through no fault of their own.

I can't help but think that to them it's better way to thumb your nose at the xtians than to say there is such a thing as man-made Heaven on Earth if only it weren't for some non-morality based accident (Rising ocean? Global warming perhaps?  ).

Look at all the creeds anti-xtians scoop-up under their umbrella of "tolerance." So long as you say, "Anyone can be saved/enlightened/whatever" you qualify. It's only those who say, "Um-m-m, actually there are standards and we don't make the rules" that are not to be tolerated. In other words, it is  morality that refuses to tolerate morality.

The exception of course are Muslims who get a free pass because the actively kill xtians and jews. Allies of convenience, really, as the ally of the Muslim hates xtians and jews because he lives amongst them and not amongst Muslims.

Who someone hates is as important as what they profess to love. In fact, it is the other side of the same coin.

Culture my dear Mr. Bunny, all comes down to culture.

Raise children in a closed society where everyone follows the same rites and customs and for generations the people believe what that they do is normal for them, be it eating the brains of a dead Grandpa to shrinking the heads of the enemy -----Nothing wrong with this, they consider outsiders to be evil, The idea of drinking the blood and eating the flesh of their GOD is unacceptable for them.

Culture causes more problems then Hate of an enemy, actually it leads to the very Hate and fear as it becomes a matter of survival of the very culture people are raised in.

Interesting how America is called the melting pot of the world, intermarriage of people lead to interesting possibility's never know before.    Children born of Asian and Latino parents, then the kids go on to marry into a Swedish family. The grand kids are multi cultural and most likely the least likely to hate other cultures.

My own parents back in 1938 broke the rules, Dad a Sailor who good girls never dated, married my Mom a woman with a French Canadian father,   Today a so what, but back then it took some real courage to do so.

Culture it changes, but is interesting for the kids.

[MrsSmith]

Don't know about all this, but studying the Eskimo culture, these people managed to raise children that had no concept of theft.  They could be starving to death but not even think about the stealing the neighbors food. Food. fish drying on the lines at 50 feet but no way would they steal the food.

Interesting culture, interesting life style, how they survived , perhaps the most civilized people on earth. They had their faith, most of their lives were built on faith.     

They were doing well and thriving until we with our faith invaded and brought along disease and practices that caused the life style to slowly die out.

It seems that we who believe in Christ or Mohammad, have invaded  and done nothing but harm.   

Faith has to be united with the living conditions of the people, their history and not interfear with with the peoples survival.

Without learning the Good News of Christ, it's much more difficult to end up in a relationship with the One that brings peace and love.  I seriously doubt that the nature of man was so intensely different as today's romantic view of any Native Americans, Alaskan or otherwise...or for that matter, any group of natural humans, period.

[vesta111]

Without learning the Good News of Christ, it's much more difficult to end up in a relationship with the One that brings peace and love.  I seriously doubt that the nature of man was so intensely different as today's romantic view of any Native Americans, Alaskan or otherwise...or for that matter, any group of natural humans, period.

Question for you Mrs.Smith, Humans walked the earth for millions of years before Jesus, the Bible, a book that was begun by the Jews is a wonder in the world to have survived to this day.   The only records that exist perhaps even older then the Bible are the records of the Hindu faith that have never been completely translated as to the huge volume of texts.   

My question is, if humanity separated by continents formed social rules to live by, what is a good or bad thing, how come BASIC guide lines are so much alike------  Do unto others as one wished to be treated, to the Kama idea of what goes around comes back to you.   The theme is the same in all faiths, give an offering to the GODS, love them and be respectfull of them. 

Then I have a question that no Christian faith has ever been able to answer.    Why did Jesus need to be baptised by John the Baptist?   Who was this John and why was he, a cousin of Jesus, doing this rite in the first place?   What and why did these Jews decide that symbolically they could wash away their sin in a river before Jesus died?

The Vatican we know has many more books that are unreleased to the public, darn I would love to see all the chapters the world knows nothing about.   In fact I have never read the Catholic Bible that has an extra chapter that the King James left out.

   

[MrsSmith]

Question for you Mrs.Smith, Humans walked the earth for millions of years before Jesus, the Bible, a book that was begun by the Jews is a wonder in the world to have survived to this day.  

God was here when humans were created, and so was Christ. The Bible wasn't "begun by Jews," it began when God gave our history to Moses during the Exodus.   It has survived to this day because it is the singly most reprinted book ever to exist on Earth.  There are more complete and partial copies of the Bible than of all other ancient writings together.  

The only records that exist perhaps even older then the Bible are the records of the Hindu faith that have never been completely translated as to the huge volume of texts.    

My question is, if humanity separated by continents formed social rules to live by, what is a good or bad thing, how come BASIC guide lines are so much alike------  Do unto others as one wished to be treated, to the Kama idea of what goes around comes back to you.   The theme is the same in all faiths, give an offering to the GODS, love them and be respectfull of them.

 So much alike?  Well, in some basic things, as CS Lewis pointed out...no culture respects cowardice, for example, but the religion and caste system of the Hindus bears very little resemblance to the monotheistic relationship of God's religion.  But of course, taking our oldest recorded histories into full account, the entire population of the world today arose from Noah and his family, so the basic ideas of right and wrong, along with much of the basic knowledge of what denotes a true god, were known to all at one time.  It's only when adults have neglected to properly educate their children (as our country is currently neglecting to do so) that basic knowledge like this becomes lost.

Then I have a question that no Christian faith has ever been able to answer.    Why did Jesus need to be baptised by John the Baptist?   Who was this John and why was he, a cousin of Jesus, doing this rite in the first place?  

Jesus was baptised by John as a mark of His faith, just as we are baptised today.  It does not wash away sin, but it does mark our intention to, or our action of, repent(ing).  There are quite a number of prophesies that were fulfilled by the baptism of Christ by John, a sufficient reason for the act if you ignore any other.

What and why did these Jews decide that symbolically they could wash away their sin in a river before Jesus died?

Before Jesus died, Jewish sin was covered by sacrifice.   However, the original covenant with Abraham was through faith, just as the New Covenant with Christ.  Baptism is a symbol of that faith, of obedience, so does not "wash away" sin, it is just a demonstration of the faith.

The Vatican we know has many more books that are unreleased to the public, darn I would love to see all the chapters the world knows nothing about.   In fact I have never read the Catholic Bible that has an extra chapter that the King James left out.

 I'm sure you can find all kinds of other books in any library.  The problem isn't that some were left out of the Bible, the problem is that even in Jesus day, men wrote down lies and heresies.  What's the point of studying something that is not true?
    

[TVDOC]

 There are more complete and partial copies of the Bible than of all other ancient writings together.  

I won't start a urinating contest over the rest of your post, however the comment quoted above simply is NOT true.........

There are millions of complete and fragmentary texts dating from periods before and up to the Bible from cultures all over the world, biblical texts ARE numerous, but hardly predominant.

In fact, there are more fragmentary texts from the Egyptian "Middle Kingdom" period than biblical texts dating from 300 AD backward.

doc

[MrsSmith]

I won't start a urinating contest over the rest of your post, however the comment quoted above simply is NOT true.........

There are millions of complete and fragmentary texts dating from periods before and up to the Bible from cultures all over the world, biblical texts ARE numerous, but hardly predominant.

In fact, there are more fragmentary texts from the Egyptian "Middle Kingdom" period than biblical texts dating from 300 AD backward.

doc

I'm not going to take the time to look the fact up again, I may have remembered it incorrectly.  Perhaps it was that there are more full and partial copies of the Bible than of any other ancient or near ancient text...rather than of all ancient texts together.

[TVDOC]

I'm not going to take the time to look the fact up again, I may have remembered it incorrectly.  Perhaps it was that there are more full and partial copies of the Bible than of any other ancient or near ancient text...rather than of all ancient texts together.

I'd probably buy that.......

doc

[Erasmus]

Culture my dear Mr. Bunny, all comes down to culture.

Raise children in a closed society where everyone follows the same rites and customs and for generations the people believe what that they do is normal for them, be it eating the brains of a dead Grandpa to shrinking the heads of the enemy -----Nothing wrong with this, they consider outsiders to be evil, The idea of drinking the blood and eating the flesh of their GOD is unacceptable for them.

Culture causes more problems then Hate of an enemy, actually it leads to the very Hate and fear as it becomes a matter of survival of the very culture people are raised in.

Differences in moral structure across history and across cultures are grossly overstated by people who like to believe or argue that morality is subjective.  Compare Myan law with the Code of Hammurabi or the Old Testament or ancient Chinese law and you'll find more broad similarities than differences.  Crime was punished, and similar acts were crimes (theft, murder, disrespect to a diety, etc.).  Extent of punishment might vary, but there's a base set of morals that almost universally appear in every single culture's laws.  They're required in order for a society to function and thrive, and those laws are required whether the people subject to them like it or not.  When a society disregards these basic moral laws on a large scale, the society fails, every time.  They are very much like the laws of physics or economics.

To relate it back to the OP, I have no problems with the possibility of aliens.  It doesn't threaten my belief in God in the slightest.  I firmly believe that if they do exist, that at a high enough intellect, they will have discovered (not invented) these same moral laws.  To me, it's a sign that the universe's cause is moral in nature (i.e. God).

[vesta111]

Differences in moral structure across history and across cultures are grossly overstated by people who like to believe or argue that morality is subjective.  Compare Myan law with the Code of Hammurabi or the Old Testament or ancient Chinese law and you'll find more broad similarities than differences.  Crime was punished, and similar acts were crimes (theft, murder, disrespect to a diety, etc.).  Extent of punishment might vary, but there's a base set of morals that almost universally appear in every single culture's laws.  They're required in order for a society to function and thrive, and those laws are required whether the people subject to them like it or not.  When a society disregards these basic moral laws on a large scale, the society fails, every time.  They are very much like the laws of physics or economics.

To relate it back to the OP, I have no problems with the possibility of aliens.  It doesn't threaten my belief in God in the slightest.  I firmly believe that if they do exist, that at a high enough intellect, they will have discovered (not invented) these same moral laws.  To me, it's a sign that the universe's cause is moral in nature (i.e. God).

I agree in part with your post, however why is it that the society's that are Pacific's, gentel and refuse to become war like are the first to die out.????

We have a moral code that does not seem to last long when we are threatened, feel envy or greed.   Our Planet gives lip service to the morality we receive from our cultures, this is all so fast to change in a heart beat when threatened.

In war time we Americans despised the conscious objectors, call them cowards and worse.   We as a civilization must protect ourselves, or humanity and culture. Those that refuse to die for the culture are harshly treated.   

So why believe some other culture from off planet, is smarter then we, has anything to benefit us, could it not be these what ever, non human view us anything but as we view the Apes with 98% of the same chromosomes as us???

Off Earth there are no humans, we would like to believe this, but Earth is special, Aliens are just that, non humans.   Alien life form can go to a dust particle that floats down to infect us, for good or bad.

HOW CAN WE HUMANS THAT STILL DO NOT KNOW EARTH THAT WELL OR OUR OWN BODYS EVEN THINK WE CAN UNDERSTAND OTHER PLANETS OR SOME LIFE FORCE THAT COMES FROM THEM???

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Would you stay on topic, PLEASE.