Angels and Aliens

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Recently while having a broad discussion on various subjects from racism to politics to religion this one particular interlocutor was as adamant as ever that religion was hooey. This was not this person's first anti-religious tirade; she seems hardly capable of containing herself simply passing by a church marquee.

Thye list of complaints was so typical as to be droll, i.e. God must hate poor people, the Crusades were bad, belief in miracles are superstituous explanations of physical phenomenon, science trumps all, etc etc etc For all the claims by this individual to have read I was struck by how much she has not read because so many of these points have counterpoints available for even the most cursory inspector.

But what really galled me was how, despite her railing against faith as unscientific she leapt, with only barest arguments for the position that alien life must surely exist. She was certain of it. It was an article of her creed.

So then I wondered to myself, not really caring to speak with her as a person and no other person was permitted a word in edgewise, why she would so readily confess aliens at the expense of angels.

I can only imagine one theory:

morality

By every description aliens and angels share the same traits: physical beings, mobility, intellect, etc but only angels bring in the topic of morality. They are the heralds of the Divine, who is morality personified. Morality makes demands. It imposes itself in inconvenient ways because it interferes with the self and demanding we consider the others.

Certainly a person who would not allow fellow conversants to conversate while berating their most heart-felt beliefs would blanch at the notion of having to consider the feelings of others.

Aliens, by contrast, will give us knowledge which we in turn will turn to our own ends. We will take their knowledge and cure disease and infirmity and make ourselves immortal. We will then soar among the stars and we will create great marvels that would make lesser men tremble with awe.

All that stuff you read about in science fiction.

One must wonder if this wonderful knowledge will come in the shape of an apple.


So why are the virulently skeptical so accepting of aliens and yet so rejecting of angels?

[Splashdown]

SSB,

I love reading your philosophical stuff!

Aliens, by contrast, will give us knowledge which we in turn will turn to our own ends. We will take their knowledge and cure disease and infirmity and make ourselves immortal. We will then soar among the stars and we will create great marvels that would make lesser men tremble with awe.

All that stuff you read about in science fiction.

One must wonder if this wonderful knowledge will come in the shape of an apple.

Kind of gives a whole new twist to the myth of Promethius, Pandora, and the tree of knowledge. Also, in the bible, angels are much more fearsome than those cute little fat babies with wings painted by the Italian Renaissance artists.



From Exekiel 10:14: And each one had four faces. The first face was the face of a cherub, the second face was the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.


Not exactly what we're used to...

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

SSB,

I love reading your philosophical stuff!

Thank-you.

I'm usually quite self-conscious about it because I know I tend to stray from the usual sorts of conversations. Before I write I usually ask myself, "Is this the sort of crap Vesta111 would say?"

Kind of gives a whole new twist to the myth of Promethius, Pandora, and the tree of knowledge.

It was the knowledge of good and evil specifically but the sales-pitch was, "you shall be as gods yourselves" but your link to pagan myth is well-placed. The story of the introduction of evil into the world, the the worldwide deluge, is retold a thousand times but the subtext is always the same.

Curious.

Symbolically, the number 4 is associated with the world, i.e. 4 seasons, 4 compass directions, etc

[vesta111]

Thank-you.

I'm usually quite self-conscious about it because I know I tend to stray from the usual sorts of conversations. Before I write I usually ask myself, "Is this the sort of crap Vesta111 would say?"

It was the knowledge of good and evil specifically but the sales-pitch was, "you shall be as gods yourselves" but your link to pagan myth is well-placed. The story of the introduction of evil into the world, the the worldwide deluge, is retold a thousand times but the subtext is always the same.

Curious.

Symbolically, the number 4 is associated with the world, i.e. 4 seasons, 4 compass directions, etc

Mr. Bunny, not by the hair on my chinie-chin -chin.

 Both Alians and Angles look some what human, even GOD is depicted as resembling man kind in body form. We were made in GOD"S image, what ever that means, I believe in evolution.


I believe it was Betty and Barney Hill who were both the first to describe the Alians as little dudes gray in color, no ears and huge eyes.   [ Space Suit????]    I had a SCUBA full suit when I was into diving and with the goggles, had the suit been gray, I would have looked much like their Alien.

As we have seen in the Fight Club and the jokers that ran my past posts through a translater and how that very funny results came out of this practice of translations.
 
 Thinking back 2,000 years and the meaning of the words, used at that time, the Rosetta Stone, translating the thoughts and ideas on the Black Sea Scrolls into modern day meaning is very difficult.

" OOH that is wicked cool-- over a good warm fire pit" Example.

Angle can mean anything from a producer on Brodway, a Genie in a bottle, a good visitor, A dream with good advice, a close friend of GOD, one who is loyal to HIM.   Many people get a strange feeling, don't take that flight, don't do this don't do that that pops into our mind and it is not crazy to believe that an Angle whispered into our mind---Guardian Angles.

All things are possible, we believe in Evil spirits, bad luck to walk under a ladder, we Christian our Ships that sail the seas, We have a priest come to our new home or apartment and bless our home.

We believe in EVIL people and places, I have all ways wondered if Evil is a form of insanity.   

There is no way I would ever put down others beliefs, I try to understand them, study on how these beliefs evolved through the history of mankind.

Question is, how to understand the mind set of humans that for 10,000+ years have and today still hold the ideas based on ideas that were had at a time in history by people who had a very different understanding of the world.   

There may in fact be Angles and Alians and I will not put down either idea, what the heck, things are being found every day using the Bible and Science.



 

 

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I used to pride myself on comprehending the seemingly inscrutable.

I am undone.

[vesta111]

I used to pride myself on comprehending the seemingly inscrutable.

I am undone.

Ah Mr. Bunny, take this one step at a time, don't try to jump into everthing at once. One that has an interest in religion or faith must go to the time what ever was formed and what good did it actually do for the followers.

Of all faiths I would have to say Christianity has done far more good then bad in 2,000 years.

This is naturally one heck of a long time for this faith to have hung around especially for the educated at all times in history.  When the Church split, and the Mother Church lost the right of life and death to the common people and the rulers of many country's, both ruling by family or sword, still the basic platform did not die, indeed it was carried peacefully to all corners of the earth.

There is an old joke about Catholic missionary's that found head hunters in the jungle.   With their faith they convinced a tribe to no longer head hunt or cannibalise the neighbors.    To consume human flesh is a sin, then after when the missionary's thought the tribe was ready to come to the Lord, they made a fatal mistake,     They introduced Communion.

   

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

What the hell does any of that have to do with the psychology behind why skeptics accept aliens sight unseen but deride angels for lack of scientific evidence?

[thundley4]

What the hell does any of that have to do with the psychology behind why skeptics accept aliens sight unseen but deride angels for lack of scientific evidence?

Nothing, but it's typical of vestanumbers, don't you think?

[vesta111]

What the hell does any of that have to do with the psychology behind why skeptics accept aliens sight unseen but deride angels for lack of scientific evidence?

I found myself  from following links at you tube site for atheist's,  interesting.

I found myself thinking about the unseen but proved facts of medical science.   How to prove a negative.

So even today with all the proof in the world from science I can look at my fingers but see nothing, I see they are there but cannot see bacteria, viruses or anything but my fingers.

In my mind science tells me there are are nasty stuff on my fingers but look as I will, I can see nothing.
How am I to believe I cannot see these things but they are there.  Where is the proof to my own eyes that things are going on on my skin I cannot see.    Microscopes may show this, but for us who do not have access to a microscope, the very idea is incompresencebable -----what we cannot see cannot exist.

Faith is much like this, the Atheists ask for proof but they have no tools to See.    Everything is by sight only, they put all things down to sight only.

   When we of faith see a wonderful sun set we thank God for the earth, Atheist's on the other hand see this as due to weather or the sun position. 

When we of faith see not God but his works, people that for no medical reason recover from a deadly disease, come out of comas after a couple years, fall from great height's and live, are pulled from frozen lakes ----Will continue later, family arriving.

[TVDOC]

I found myself  from following links at you tube site for atheist's,  interesting.

I found myself thinking about the unseen but proved facts of medical science.   How to prove a negative.


<snip>

Vesta,

Considering the forum, if you have something salient to add to the discussion, please do so, however:

If you can do it in twenty words or less (not twenty paragraphs), we all would be appreciative......

Hint:  Before hitting the "post" button, it would be helpful if you reviewed the opening post to determine if what you're saying has anything at all to do with the specific topic at hand.

Thank you......

doc

[Thor]

I believe in both. I also believe that there are more angels around us than we realize and they are ever present. Aliens, OTOH, are present only sometimes and are not always here for the good of mankind.

[vesta111]

Vesta,

Considering the forum, if you have something salient to add to the discussion, please do so, however:

If you can do it in twenty words or less (not twenty paragraphs), we all would be appreciative......

Hint:  Before hitting the "post" button, it would be helpful if you reviewed the opening post to determine if what you're saying has anything at all to do with the specific topic at hand.

Thank you......

doc

I stand corrected SIR, I shall pehaps go over the 20 words by a few but will for your reading pleasure try to keep count  [25]

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Hm-m-m...

ORLANDO, Fla. — The discovery of intelligent aliens would be mind-blowing in many respects, but it could present a special dilemma for the world's religions, theologians pondering interstellar travel concepts said Saturday (Oct. 1).

Christians, in particular, might take the news hardest, because the Christian belief system does not easily allow for other intelligent beings in the universe, Christian thinkers said at the 100 Year Starship Symposium, a meeting sponsored by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) to discuss issues surrounding traveling to other stars.

In other words, "Did Jesus die for Klingons too?" as philosophy professor Christian Weidemannof Germany's Ruhr-University Bochum titled his talk at a panel on the philosophical and religious considerations of visiting other worlds.

http://www.livescience.com/16345-aliens-religion-impacts-extraterrestrial-christianity.html

I've always been of the opinion that a secondary reason atheists are so enamored with the idea of aliens is the above issue could be used as a cudgel against "especially Christians." To me it is tantamount to an atheist demanding to know how many sentient extra-dimensional beings can dance on the head of a pin.

Of course the issue mentioned in the article has far too many caveats to consider.

* Every sentient race may not be morally aware. Moral awareness came after humanity ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In other words they may have never fallen and remain in their original station of undefiled Good.

* A morally aware race may have also repented. Humanity became morally aware and hid from God out of shame. Another race may have simply stepped forward, dropped the fig leaves and said, "Yeah, I screwed up."

* Another race may have been so depraved they didn't even get a Noah when their world was reset and the entire damned species was readicated.

* Another race may have received its Messiah and accepted Him the first go 'round.

* Another race may have rejected its Messiah or wholly exterminated His followers leaving no Gospel to work through their species.

Or perhaps, most terrifyingly, but certainly in accord with the absolute moral authority of deity:

* Maybe they are just as fallen as humanity, but as grace is just that--GRACE--the parole granted to humanity need not be extended to any others. No innocent being is ever consigned to eternal separation and none ever will be but that doesn't mean the parole need to extended to all. Justice and Mercy can coexist within the same God but Mercy is not a requisite of Justice.

[marv]

So why are the virulently skeptical so accepting of aliens and yet so rejecting of angels?

Just another attempt by "science" to attempt to co-opt religion. In this case it's extraterrestrials replacing angels. They've already replaced a Creation with a Big Bang version of a creation, so what's to stop them here.

Science and religion are wrong in both cases because, on these issues, both require belief and speculation, and neither can be proved. But then, I'm just an amiable atheist, so what do I know.........

[SherryBaby]

Just another attempt by "science" to attempt to co-opt religion. In this case it's extraterrestrials replacing angels. They've already replaced a Creation with a Big Bang version of a creation, so what's to stop them here.

Science and religion are wrong in both cases because, on these issues, both require belief and speculation, and neither can be proved. But then, I'm just an amiable atheist, so what do I know?

Would you say any and all theory is wrong and should be discounted completely?

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Would you say any and all theory is wrong and should be discounted completely?

This is the crux of the thread then, isn't it.

Based on the data points of the story: burst of light, consolidation of matter, formation of stars, etc etc etc there may be some points in the linear timeline of the separate descriptions but essentially they are the same stoy.

But each camp prefers it's own version.

So what is the difference?

As near as sub-texts are concerned the only difference I can see is:

MATERIALIST: The universe is the result of mechanical processes set in motion by unplanned physical laws that exist and operate by happenstance and without purpose.

In other words: the universe is amoral

THEIST: The universe is the creation of a benign Creator who has a purpose and who metes out justice tempered by mercy.

In other words: the universe is moral


Now, absent revelation the latter theory cannot be proven nor the former disproven. Some claim that revelation has occurred and has been duly recorded in one form or another but that's another, different thread entirely and I'll use my Mod-Wand to zot any post veering into debates on the validity of scripture, regardless of sect (I'm talking to you, you Zoastrian bastards!).

Conversely the materialists are in the tricky situation of claiming--tautologically--that science is that which observes the universe. Well, it's a rather difficult thing to claim nothing exists outside the universe when you predicate your claim on only observing what is within the universe. It is akin to saying, "Nothing exists outside this room and I refuse to look out the wondow!"

Put another way, the materialist demands the Angels on High stop patronizing mangers and pay him a personal visit.

But if the materialist is so prepared to receive aliens how would he know an angel?

Conversely, if a zealot saw only angels how would he discern the presence of aliens...or worse?

[thundley4]

I am not a religious person, but I have less trouble believing in angels than I do in aliens.

[Chris_]

I am not a religious person, but I have less trouble believing in angels than I do in aliens.

The angels have a better PR team.

[Erasmus]

What gets me is that the atheists claim that we cannot tell whether or not something is intelligently designed, yet we can keep funding SETI to look for signals that were intelligently designed.  How can you tell, lol?

And no matter how hard they try, atheists cannot come up with any rational basis for morality that doesn't have glaring loopholes or smuggled-in assumptions.

Science in the 1700's, when it began to bloom, was largely based on the notion that there was an order to the universe.  They believed this because they believed in an Orderer.  Without such beliefs, it's not clear that modern science would be as far along as it is.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

What gets me is that the atheists claim that we cannot tell whether or not something is intelligently designed, yet we can keep funding SETI to look for signals that were intelligently designed.  How can you tell, lol?

Good point.

And no matter how hard they try, atheists cannot come up with any rational basis for morality that doesn't have glaring loopholes or smuggled-in assumptions.

I have often asked my fellow irreligious sorts WHY I should do anything to their comfort or benefit with no successful replies.

Science in the 1700's, when it began to bloom, was largely based on the notion that there was an order to the universe.  They believed this because they believed in an Orderer.  Without such beliefs, it's not clear that modern science would be as far along as it is.

You may be off by a few dozen centuries.

[Erasmus]

You may be off by a few dozen centuries.

You're right.  It goes back much further than that.  I had Sir Isaac Newton in mind when I wrote that.  If I recall correctly, he wrote more about religion than he did science.

[seahorse513]

I have some interesting reading for you all if you are interested!!!

"Extraterrestrials" and "Who The Bleep designed Us? A God? Ets? Both? Neither?"

both written by Stephen Mather-Lees

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

You're right.  It goes back much further than that.  I had Sir Isaac Newton in mind when I wrote that.  If I recall correctly, he wrote more about religion than he did science.

The Greeks and their intellectual descendents were very keen to logic and reason. The gods were, perhaps, a bit too capricious for them and their inquiries were somewhat limited because of it but their feats of engineering are things us modern technocrats should worship in awe. They understood principles of hydraulics and could bore through mountains from opposite ends and meet in the middle only a few feet off-center of each other. They also understood lead poisoning without the benefit of chemical and bio-chemical testing.

The Hebrews and their Christian off-shoot were well underway from the earliest accountings. The Hebrews, after all, left Egypt, a culture than smeared feces on open wounds as a palliative. But immediately upon their liberation the Hebrews instituted sanitation procedures that would have spared the world numerous plagues if only the world would have listened.

I have some interesting reading for you all if you are interested!!!

An entire book? Probably not going to happen. Can you throw us a few morsels to chew-on?

[Erasmus]

The Greeks and their intellectual descendents were very keen to logic and reason. The gods were, perhaps, a bit too capricious for them and their inquiries were somewhat limited because of it but their feats of engineering are things us modern technocrats should worship in awe. They understood principles of hydraulics and could bore through mountains from opposite ends and meet in the middle only a few feet off-center of each other. They also understood lead poisoning without the benefit of chemical and bio-chemical testing.

The Hebrews and their Christian off-shoot were well underway from the earliest accountings. The Hebrews, after all, left Egypt, a culture than smeared feces on open wounds as a palliative. But immediately upon their liberation the Hebrews instituted sanitation procedures that would have spared the world numerous plagues if only the world would have listened.

Unfortunately, lazy or politically correct historians have attributed too much of Christian and Jewish innovation to Islam simply because Islam ruled the area.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Unfortunately, lazy or politically correct historians have attributed too much of Christian and Jewish innovation to Islam simply because Islam ruled the area.

The world has never been lacking for the desire to ignore good advice or to persecute good advice givers. Islam is just the latest rationale for those who reject their betters.

At sporadic times in European "Christian" history people threw human waste in the streets even though scripture told them to "leave that shit outside the camp" [NOTE: may not be a direct citation]. Why would supposed scripture adherents turn away from that scripture? My guess is: it was too "Jewish."

But I suppose that plays back into our original thread:

Why do people reject one thing when the very thing they are looking for fulfills their supposed need, only it comes attached with moral qualifiers?

What is it about moral qualifiers that so terrify people into irrational and sometimes self-destructive ends?