666

[djones520]

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.

...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   

Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."

If that where true I certainly wouldn't be wearing this uniform today.

Some of the most self centered people I've ever met wore a service uniform.  Nice try, though.

So your saying I'm self centered now?     I've done nothing but serve others my whole life, but because I choose not to believe in a higher power I care only about myself and have a hugely inflated ego.  Thanks for summing up my life.

A mans religion does not determine who he is.  Hell, my MiL is a die hard christian, but she's also a bigot.  Her mother is a die hard Christian, and is a racist.

[Rebel Yell]

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.

...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   

Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."

If that where true I certainly wouldn't be wearing this uniform today.

Some of the most self centered people I've ever met wore a service uniform.  Nice try, though.

So your saying I'm self centered now?     I've done nothing but serve others my whole life, but because I choose not to believe in a higher power I care only about myself and have a hugely inflated ego.  Thanks for summing up my life.

A mans religion does not determine who he is.  Hell, my MiL is a die hard christian, but she's also a bigot.  Her mother is a die hard Christian, and is a racist.

I don't know you from Adam's Housecat.  I wasn't saying you are self centered.  I was saying wearing the uniform doesn't automatically make you not self centered.  I had friends in the Navy that were atheist, I really didn't care. I consider myself christian, but I wasn't a good one.

[djones520]

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.

...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   

Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."

If that where true I certainly wouldn't be wearing this uniform today.

Some of the most self centered people I've ever met wore a service uniform.  Nice try, though.

So your saying I'm self centered now?     I've done nothing but serve others my whole life, but because I choose not to believe in a higher power I care only about myself and have a hugely inflated ego.  Thanks for summing up my life.

A mans religion does not determine who he is.  Hell, my MiL is a die hard christian, but she's also a bigot.  Her mother is a die hard Christian, and is a racist.

I don't know you from Adam's Housecat.  I wasn't saying you are self centered.  I was saying wearing the uniform doesn't automatically make you not self centered.  I had friends in the Navy that were atheist, I really didn't care. I consider myself christian, but I wasn't a good one.

Then don't hand out blanket criticisms like that.  I for one find it very offensive when you attack my religious choices like that.  I'll be the first to agree that there are Atheists out there who are so full of themselves it's sickening.  But that in no way proves that "most Atheists" are like that.  Thats like me looking at that Wright fellow and calling all Christians racists hate mongers.  I know that would piss a lot of people off.

[Rebel Yell]

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.

...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   

Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."

If that where true I certainly wouldn't be wearing this uniform today.

Some of the most self centered people I've ever met wore a service uniform.  Nice try, though.

So your saying I'm self centered now?     I've done nothing but serve others my whole life, but because I choose not to believe in a higher power I care only about myself and have a hugely inflated ego.  Thanks for summing up my life.

A mans religion does not determine who he is.  Hell, my MiL is a die hard christian, but she's also a bigot.  Her mother is a die hard Christian, and is a racist.

I don't know you from Adam's Housecat.  I wasn't saying you are self centered.  I was saying wearing the uniform doesn't automatically make you not self centered.  I had friends in the Navy that were atheist, I really didn't care. I consider myself christian, but I wasn't a good one.

Then don't hand out blanket criticisms like that.  I for one find it very offensive when you attack my religious choices like that.  I'll be the first to agree that there are Atheists out there who are so full of themselves it's sickening.  But that in no way proves that "most Atheists" are like that.  Thats like me looking at that Wright fellow and calling all Christians racists hate mongers.  I know that would piss a lot of people off.

Man, get your panties out of a wad.  If you saw Christians lined up in the media looking down their noses saying atheists are just ignorant and hold on to superstition trying to take away any symbol of atheism displayed in a public place, I would say I understand why you feel that way.  Until then, chill out and know that you are not that way.

[Amityschild]

I also do not think that the end--if there be one--would come from a triumph of atheism--but the consensus that God did indeed exist but mankind choosing to reject Him regardless. It's just one bunny's opinion but it seems to accord with the calamities that have befallen those who openly rejected God throughout the balance of scripture.

An interesting idea, but... I have difficulty imagining why someone who is given incontrovertible proof that the supreme being exists would reject it. Then again, I have always imagined that if I were ever to have a meeting with the supreme being that it would go extremely badly because I would probably handle it like Captain Kirk did at the end of Star Trek V...

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ&feature=related

Most people tend to handle meeting God up close and personal in the same general way:

Exodus 3:6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Judges 13:20-22 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.  When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.
"We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"

Ezekiel 1:26-28 Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
      This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

Matthew 17:6-7 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid."

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!"

Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

FlaGator, awesome post.  I was reading The Knowledge of the Holy last night by A. W. Tozer about this very issue.  I was so struck by this fact, that modern man does not have awe and reverence and FEAR toward God.  We banter about this foolishness about his existence whereas, the men of the Old & New Testament feared God, fully believed in his presence and firey being.  You missed the account of Daniel's vision of the Lord.  I'd recount it, but do not have the text here with me.  It was incredible.  Blows me away.

I see God differently today.  I must pity the one who has the veil covering their eyes.  That they do not see does not change the reality.

Amity

[djones520]

Men of the old testament had no way of explaining lightning, earthquakes, swarms of locusts, eclipses, etc...

Thats a big part of why mankind isn't nearly as god fearing as it was 2,000 years ago.  We've learned more about our environment, and we're more apt to look for an explanation then to just label it as divine happenstance.

[Amityschild]

Men of the old testament had no way of explaining lightning, earthquakes, swarms of locusts, eclipses, etc...

Thats a big part of why mankind isn't nearly as god fearing as it was 2,000 years ago.  We've learned more about our environment, and we're more apt to look for an explanation then to just label it as divine happenstance.

Yes, that is a huge part of it.  We now look to nature for the explanation.  What a loss for so much of mankind.  Looking at the creation for the answer rather than the creator. 

Gaia anyone?

[The Night Owl]

Yes, that is a huge part of it.  We now look to nature for the explanation.  What a loss for so much of mankind.  Looking at the creation for the answer rather than the creator.

Are you kidding? Had scientists not looked to nature for the cause of disease, the human race would be so much worse off right now.

Gaia anyone?

No, thanks. People who subscribe to the Gaia hypothesis are just as goofy as people who think that God controls the weather.

[The Night Owl]

Men of the old testament had no way of explaining lightning, earthquakes, swarms of locusts, eclipses, etc...

Thats a big part of why mankind isn't nearly as god fearing as it was 2,000 years ago.  We've learned more about our environment, and we're more apt to look for an explanation then to just label it as divine happenstance.

Yes... The fact that the Bible contains no scientific knowledge beyond what was known by mankind during the span of time it was written in is, I think, strong evidence that it was written by men.

[Chris_]

Men of the old testament had no way of explaining lightning, earthquakes, swarms of locusts, eclipses, etc...

Thats a big part of why mankind isn't nearly as god fearing as it was 2,000 years ago.  We've learned more about our environment, and we're more apt to look for an explanation then to just label it as divine happenstance.

Yes... The fact that the Bible contains no scientific knowledge beyond what was known by mankind during the span of time it was written in is, I think, strong evidence that it was written by men.

It was transcribed by men -- it was written by God.

The Bible was never intended to be a guide to science -- it is meant to be a guide to Life.

[djones520]

Gaia anyone?

No, thanks. People who subscribe to the Gaia hypothesis are just as goofy as people who think that God controls the weather.

As a weather forecaster, I will say that there are times I'm left wondering if someone up there is messing with the weather.

Thats why we keep a number of sacrificial goats in the back room.   

[Chris_]

Gaia anyone?

No, thanks. People who subscribe to the Gaia hypothesis are just as goofy as people who think that God controls the weather.

As a weather forecaster, I will say that there are times I'm left wondering if someone up there is messing with the weather.

Thats why we keep a number of sacrificial goats in the back room.   

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Chris_]

Men of the old testament had no way of explaining lightning, earthquakes, swarms of locusts, eclipses, etc...

Sure they did. 

Thats a big part of why mankind isn't nearly as god fearing as it was 2,000 years ago.  We've learned more about our environment, and we're more apt to look for an explanation then to just label it as divine happenstance.

So we're too smart to believe in God now?   

[Chris_]

Gaia anyone?

No, thanks. People who subscribe to the Gaia hypothesis are just as goofy as people who think that God controls the weather.

As a weather forecaster, I will say that there are times I'm left wondering if someone up there is messing with the weather.

Thats why we keep a number of sacrificial goats in the back room.   

I thought forecaster just tossed a bunch of old chicken bones on a table.

*runs*

[djones520]

Men of the old testament had no way of explaining lightning, earthquakes, swarms of locusts, eclipses, etc...

Sure they did. 

Thats a big part of why mankind isn't nearly as god fearing as it was 2,000 years ago.  We've learned more about our environment, and we're more apt to look for an explanation then to just label it as divine happenstance.

So we're too smart to believe in God now?   

I was waiting for someone to twist the words like that.

No, that is not at all what I was saying.  It's just that a lot of the items that people saw as being caused by the divine are now explained in scientific manner.

Unless you still think a Titan is responisible for holding the heavens up?

If anything, today religion is more about faith then it was 2000 years ago.

[djones520]

Gaia anyone?

No, thanks. People who subscribe to the Gaia hypothesis are just as goofy as people who think that God controls the weather.

As a weather forecaster, I will say that there are times I'm left wondering if someone up there is messing with the weather.

Thats why we keep a number of sacrificial goats in the back room.   

I thought forecaster just tossed a bunch of old chicken bones on a table.

*runs*

Thats our backup for when the Magic 8 Ball stops working.

[Chris_]

Men of the old testament had no way of explaining lightning, earthquakes, swarms of locusts, eclipses, etc...

Sure they did. 

Thats a big part of why mankind isn't nearly as god fearing as it was 2,000 years ago.  We've learned more about our environment, and we're more apt to look for an explanation then to just label it as divine happenstance.

So we're too smart to believe in God now?   

I was waiting for someone to twist the words like that.

No, that is not at all what I was saying.  It's just that a lot of the items that people saw as being caused by the divine are now explained in scientific manner.

Unless you still think a Titan is responisible for holding the heavens up?

If anything, today religion is more about faith then it was 2000 years ago.

It's not nice to confuse an old man.

[Amityschild]

Yes, that is a huge part of it.  We now look to nature for the explanation.  What a loss for so much of mankind.  Looking at the creation for the answer rather than the creator.

Are you kidding? Had scientists not looked to nature for the cause of disease, the human race would be so much worse off right now.

And they can do that because there is a God directing all that is seen and unseen.  But, I was thinking of questions about the creation act, not the busyiness within the creation itself.

Gaia anyone?

No, thanks. People who subscribe to the Gaia hypothesis are just as goofy as people who think that God controls the weather.

Well, of course they are!  Read Gaia for DUmmies

[djones520]

What I'm saying is, that 2,000 years ago, there was a lot more "proof" for the divine because of the ignorance of mankind.

If you had never heard of tectonic plates, what would you have thought caused an earthquake?  And angry god maybe?

With so much understanding that mankind now has of the physical environment, a lot more pure faith is required to believe in God, because all of that "proof" that existed for our ancestors has been explained as other things.

I'm not in anyway trying to sleight religion here.  If anything, in my thinking, it's a lot purer today then in was in the past.

[Chris_]

What I'm saying is, that 2,000 years ago, there was a lot more "proof" for the divine because of the ignorance of mankind.

If you had never heard of tectonic plates, what would you have thought caused an earthquake?  And angry god maybe?

With so much understanding that mankind now has of the physical environment, a lot more pure faith is required to believe in God, because all of that "proof" that existed for our ancestors has been explained as other things.

I'm not in anyway trying to sleight religion here.  If anything, in my thinking, it's a lot purer today then in was in the past.

Science today does a much better job of explaining how things work (or at least we think how things work) today than they did 2000 years ago.  We are no closer to explaining why though.

^^^ Something I learned in a high school physics class a few hundred years ago.  Science tries its best to explain what and how, but never why.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

An interesting idea, but... I have difficulty imagining why someone who is given incontrovertible proof that the supreme being exists would reject it.

You mean like the Hebrews at Mt Sinai?

If it is one biblical principle proven time and again it is that humans will act selfishly, irrationally and against their own best interests "like a dog returns to its vomit" if I may borrow a turn of phrase; just to prove he can master his own destiny in a godless world. Marxism Socialism Liberalism Progressivism is a perfect example.

Then again, I have always imagined that if I were ever to have a meeting with the supreme being that it would go extremely badly because I would probably handle it like Captain Kirk did at the end of Star Trek V...

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ&feature=related

It's an idiotic and poorly scripted movie...so yeah, you would act exactly like that.

[Ptarmigan]

Exactly.  God requires faith.  With proof there would be no need for faith. 

How I see it, religion and faith are two different things.

[The Night Owl]

You mean like the Hebrews at Mt Sinai?

Well, sure... if you're the type of person who believes that even the most fantastical accounts in the Bible are factual, then of course you consider the Biblical account of the incident at Mt. Sinai to be proof of something, but to me, it is just a story and is in no way a reliable account.

If it is one biblical principle proven time and again it is that humans will act selfishly, irrationally and against their own best interests "like a dog returns to its vomit" if I may borrow a turn of phrase; just to prove he can master his own destiny in a godless world. Marxism Socialism Liberalism Progressivism is a perfect example.

That men often act against their own interest has been proven many times, but proof or even evidence of how mankind might react when confronted by God is something we don't have.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

You mean like the Hebrews at Mt Sinai?

Well, sure... if you're the type of person who believes that even the most fantastical accounts in the Bible are factual, then of course you consider the Biblical account of the incident at Mt. Sinai to be proof of something, but to me, it is just a story and is in no way a reliable account.

If it is one biblical principle proven time and again it is that humans will act selfishly, irrationally and against their own best interests "like a dog returns to its vomit" if I may borrow a turn of phrase; just to prove he can master his own destiny in a godless world. Marxism Socialism Liberalism Progressivism is a perfect example.

That men often act against their own interest has been proven many times, but proof or even evidence of how mankind might react when confronted by God is something we don't have.

So in your first rebuttal you dismiss the Mt Sinai account out of hand. There is one interesting point of the Mt Sinai account: the recorders present an extremely unflattering account of themselves. Generally, when people lie they flatter themselves. Here the Jews speak of themselves as scared, cowardly, disobedient, conceited, arrogant, depraved, malicious, ungrateful...

Compare that with your average Mohammedan or liberal.

In your second rebuttal you dismiss a general, time-proven evidence of humanity's folly in order to affirm an untested faith that were humans confronted with God they would suddenly fall in line.

All without the slighest hint of a sense of irony or self-contradiction.

[The Night Owl]

So in your first rebuttal you dismiss the Mt Sinai account out of hand. There is one interesting point of the Mt Sinai account: the recorders present an extremely unflattering account of themselves. Generally, when people lie they flatter themselves. Here the Jews speak of themselves as scared, cowardly, disobedient, conceited, arrogant, depraved, malicious, ungrateful...

Compare that with your average Mohammedan or liberal.

In your second rebuttal you dismiss a general, time-proven evidence of humanity's folly in order to affirm an untested faith that were humans confronted with God they would suddenly fall in line.

All without the slighest hint of a sense of irony or self-contradiction.

Regardless of how convincing you believe the Bible to be, the fact remains that it is not hard evidence of anything other than what some people wrote in the past. The Bible is, at the very most, testimony.