Author Topic: 666  (Read 32576 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Re: 666
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 07:23:49 PM »
What is it about the Book of Revelation that scares the shit out of the Godless? If you don't believe in God, it's just a story, right? It's silly, right? Four horsemen, a beast. Ha, Ha!

SOMEthing is tugging at them.

The Book of Revelations doesn't scare me in the least. What scares me is the possibility that a religious zealot in a position of authority might one day choose a dangerous course of action based on what some crackpot like Charlie Daniels thinks the Book of Revelations demands or foretells.

*pat pat*

You are SOOO cute in how you use grown up words.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: 666
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2008, 07:38:56 PM »
I also do not think that the end--if there be one--would come from a triumph of atheism--but the consensus that God did indeed exist but mankind choosing to reject Him regardless. It's just one bunny's opinion but it seems to accord with the calamities that have befallen those who openly rejected God throughout the balance of scripture.

An interesting idea, but... I have difficulty imagining why someone who is given incontrovertible proof that the supreme being exists would reject it. Then again, I have always imagined that if I were ever to have a meeting with the supreme being that it would go extremely badly because I would probably handle it like Captain Kirk did at the end of Star Trek V...

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ&feature=related
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Offline Rebel Yell

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Re: 666
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2008, 07:49:32 AM »
I also do not think that the end--if there be one--would come from a triumph of atheism--but the consensus that God did indeed exist but mankind choosing to reject Him regardless. It's just one bunny's opinion but it seems to accord with the calamities that have befallen those who openly rejected God throughout the balance of scripture.

An interesting idea, but... I have difficulty imagining why someone who is given incontrovertible proof that the supreme being exists would reject it. Then again, I have always imagined that if I were ever to have a meeting with the supreme being that it would go extremely badly because I would probably handle it like Captain Kirk did at the end of Star Trek V...

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ&feature=related
Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"
I feel that once a black fella has referred to white foks as "honky paleface devil white-trash cracker redneck Caspers," he's abdicated the right to get upset about the "N" word. But that's just me. -- Jim Goad

Offline FlaGator

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Re: 666
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2008, 07:54:47 AM »
Eschatology is the most useless of all religious pursuits. I've moved among circles of Christians that got very wound-up about ID'ing the anti-Christ.

Why?

When he is revealed it will be because the God-ordained end is nigh. To try and prevent that is to prevent the will of God. Even the scriptures say the man of perdition shall not be revealed until He who lets, lets.

I also do not think that the end--if there be one--would come from a triumph of atheism--but the consensus that God did indeed exist but mankind choosing to reject Him regardless. It's just one bunny's opinion but it seems to accord with the calamities that have befallen those who openly rejected God throughout the balance of scripture.

BTW -  it is my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox church does not include Revelations amongst its received canon. Is this correct?

When he is revealed only the elect will recognize him for what he is. The rest of the world will jump on the anti-christ bandwagon and do the end days boogie. My question to those who seek to make sense of prophecy that Christ himself implied would not be untangled until the appropriate time is why bother? If you are elect then you'll know him when you see him. If you are not elect then your going to join in the persecution of the elect. I feel that those who spend huge amounts of time and effort trying to unravel end times prophecy have a suspicion they may not be on the right end of things and want a little forwarning so that they can change their ways just in the nick of time. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way...
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Offline FlaGator

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Re: 666
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2008, 08:05:58 AM »
I also do not think that the end--if there be one--would come from a triumph of atheism--but the consensus that God did indeed exist but mankind choosing to reject Him regardless. It's just one bunny's opinion but it seems to accord with the calamities that have befallen those who openly rejected God throughout the balance of scripture.

An interesting idea, but... I have difficulty imagining why someone who is given incontrovertible proof that the supreme being exists would reject it. Then again, I have always imagined that if I were ever to have a meeting with the supreme being that it would go extremely badly because I would probably handle it like Captain Kirk did at the end of Star Trek V...

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ&feature=related

Most people tend to handle meeting God up close and personal in the same general way:

Exodus 3:6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Judges 13:20-22 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.  When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.
"We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"

Ezekiel 1:26-28 Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
      This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

Matthew 17:6-7 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid."

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!"

Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: 666
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2008, 08:08:00 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
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Offline Rebel Yell

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Re: 666
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2008, 08:09:57 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
If you actually in the presence of God, you'll know it is Him.  And, trust me, you WILL NOT be condescending toward Him.
I feel that once a black fella has referred to white foks as "honky paleface devil white-trash cracker redneck Caspers," he's abdicated the right to get upset about the "N" word. But that's just me. -- Jim Goad

Offline FlaGator

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Re: 666
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2008, 08:23:49 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.

I think you miss the point. When standing before the Almighty you won't need miracles or parlor tricks to help you realize that you are before God. Just the mere presence of God will assure you that you are encountering the Creator.
"My enemy's enemy is the enemy I kill last."
Klingon Proverb.

Offline RedTail

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Re: 666
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2008, 08:28:47 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.

I think you miss the point. When standing before the Almighty you won't need miracles or parlor tricks to help you realize that you are before God. Just the mere presence of God will assure you that you are encountering the Creator.

Very true. If God merely speaking through someone can strike me mute. . .(I'm speaking from experience here) I would think the full experience of God's Divinity will be something you will not be able to deny.

*Red*

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: 666
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2008, 08:46:11 AM »
Very true. If God merely speaking through someone can strike me mute. . .(I'm speaking from experience here) I would think the full experience of God's Divinity will be something you will not be able to deny.

*Red*

So, if I find myself standing before something claiming to be God, how do I determine that I'm standing before the supreme being and not just a higher being?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 08:51:57 AM by The Night Owl »
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Offline FlaGator

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Re: 666
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2008, 08:47:32 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.

I think you miss the point. When standing before the Almighty you won't need miracles or parlor tricks to help you realize that you are before God. Just the mere presence of God will assure you that you are encountering the Creator.

Very true. If God merely speaking through someone can strike me mute. . .(I'm speaking from experience here) I would think the full experience of God's Divinity will be something you will not be able to deny.

*Red*

I posted a message on the previous page that listed Scripture for some of the Biblical encounters between man and God. You can probably relate to them. I know I did.
"My enemy's enemy is the enemy I kill last."
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Offline FlaGator

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Re: 666
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2008, 08:51:03 AM »
Very true. If God merely speaking through someone can strike me mute. . .(I'm speaking from experience here) I would think the full experience of God's Divinity will be something you will not be able to deny.

*Red*

So, if I find myself standing before God, how do I determine that I'm standing before the supreme being and not just a higher being?

Your not really this ignorant are you?
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Offline RedTail

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Re: 666
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2008, 08:52:31 AM »
Very true. If God merely speaking through someone can strike me mute. . .(I'm speaking from experience here) I would think the full experience of God's Divinity will be something you will not be able to deny.

*Red*

So, if I find myself standing before God, how do I determine that I'm standing before the supreme being and not just a higher being?

You know how you know the wind is blowing in your face?

Like that. That's how obvious it will be.

Gator, I don't think he's as much ignorant as unwilling.

*Red*

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: 666
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2008, 08:55:20 AM »
Your not really this ignorant are you?

Ignorance is not the problem. Fallibility is. A fallible human can never be absolutely certain about anything, right? If God were standing before me trying to convince me that he is the supreme being, he would probably have to grant me the power of infallibility for me to be convinced that he is what he says he is.
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Offline FlaGator

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Re: 666
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2008, 09:05:25 AM »
Your not really this ignorant are you?

Ignorance is not the problem. Fallibility is. A fallible human can never be absolutely certain about anything, right? If God were standing before me trying to convince me that he is the supreme being, he would probably have to grant me the power of infallibility for me to be convinced that he is what he says he is.

May I quote some more Scripture? Heck I'm going to do it anyways. Those who are of God know God. If you do not recognize him then what does that say about you and your relationship with God. Jesus defined this for us in John 10:14-18:

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 09:07:10 AM by FlaGator »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: 666
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2008, 11:17:13 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Rebel Yell

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Re: 666
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2008, 11:19:27 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:
Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."
I feel that once a black fella has referred to white foks as "honky paleface devil white-trash cracker redneck Caspers," he's abdicated the right to get upset about the "N" word. But that's just me. -- Jim Goad

Offline Chris_

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Re: 666
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2008, 11:24:30 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:
Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."
Exactly.  God requires faith.  With proof there would be no need for faith. 
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chris_

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Re: 666
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2008, 11:36:23 AM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:
Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."
Exactly.  God requires faith.  With proof there would be no need for faith. 

That always bothered me about the TV show "Touched by an Angel."  In the end, Roma would clearly demonstrate she was an angel (by miraculous glowing if nothing else) and basically force a epiphany.  But if we empirically KNEW God existed, then our lives would be led as a cynical attempt to impress Him -- and we would not need faith, by which we are measured. 

I do the (or at least try) right thing because I believe that is what God wants me to do.  I don't do it to impress Him, I do it because he turns my heart that way.  That is IMHO the nature of faith.

(FWIIW, "Highway to Heaven" was much more theologically sound IMHO -- Michael almost never revealed his angelic nature and just convinced or persuaded people to do the right thing).
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: 666
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2008, 12:49:39 PM »
Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."

Atheists do not claim that none can be more important or knowledgeable than they.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 12:55:42 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: 666
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2008, 12:55:23 PM »
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:

My sense of doubt has nothing to do with how important I think I am.

Perhaps I should argue from the point of view of a believer...

Christians believe that Lucifer has the power to trick humans, right? If Lucifer has the power to trick humans, then humans should retain an amount of doubt, lest they be confronted by a demon pretending to be God.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: 666
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2008, 12:57:39 PM »
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:

My sense of doubt has nothing to do with how important I think I am.

Perhaps I should argue from the point of view of a believer...

Christians believe that Lucifer has the power to trick humans, right? If Lucifer has the power to trick humans, then humans should retain an amount of doubt, lest they be confronted by a demon pretending to be God.
Newsflash:  We all have doubt.  Our faith is never perfect no matter how hard we try.

Your strawman just went up in flames...again.   :whatever:
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Offline djones520

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Re: 666
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2008, 01:01:52 PM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:
Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."

:whatever:

If that where true I certainly wouldn't be wearing this uniform today.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: 666
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2008, 02:27:19 PM »
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:

My sense of doubt has nothing to do with how important I think I am.


Nothing can get in the way of how important you think you are.  That is what makes you so -- unimportant.
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Offline Rebel Yell

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Re: 666
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2008, 02:29:16 PM »

Kirk also knew that wasn't God.  "Why does God need a starship?"

Exactly. A being standing before me and claiming to be God would have to perform feats way more impressive than burning a bush or two for me to believe that I'm standing before the supreme being.
...because you are sooo important that God must prove himself to you.   :whatever:
Exactly, H5.  That is the common theme amongst most atheists.  "There can't be anything more important or more all knowing than me."

:whatever:

If that where true I certainly wouldn't be wearing this uniform today.
Some of the most self centered people I've ever met wore a service uniform.  Nice try, though.
I feel that once a black fella has referred to white foks as "honky paleface devil white-trash cracker redneck Caspers," he's abdicated the right to get upset about the "N" word. But that's just me. -- Jim Goad