Author Topic: Dogs....  (Read 3327 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vesta111

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9712
  • Reputation: +492/-1153
Dogs....
« on: March 19, 2011, 08:54:43 AM »
Dogs are the most amazing creatures, in the way that they feel compassion for human, or even another animals.

It kind of makes me wonder about all this evolution stuff and what not.   

We hear that the dog comes from the wolf etc but darn one cannot house break a wolf or Coyote, why can we train a dog to live amongst us by our rules and they do so.??

Why is the only other animal on earth able to help us, sniff out disease , seziers, guide the blind and aid the deaf.??  Find explosives, drugs and in some studies just by holding a dog peoples blood pressure, tension go down.

WTF is it with a dog that causes grown men to cry when they die, to raise monuments to them and feel great relief when our leaders own a dog.???

Regardless of the experts that maintain that dogs evolved to suite man kind, I question this.  Nothing else has done so in the Animal world,  why just the dog???

Offline CG6468

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11493
  • Reputation: +540/-210
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 09:33:11 AM »
It kind of makes me wonder about all this evolution stuff and what not.   

We hear that the dog comes from the wolf etc but darn one cannot house break a wolf or Coyote, why can we train a dog to live amongst us by our rules and they do so.?

Not true. My brother-in-law had a full timber wolf as a pet on his farm south of Buffalo, NY. Housebroken, friendly, loved to play ball with the kids.
Illinois, south of the gun controllers in Chi town

Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 04:50:27 PM »
It kind of makes me wonder about all this evolution stuff and what not.   

We hear that the dog comes from the wolf etc but darn one cannot house break a wolf or Coyote, why can we train a dog to live amongst us by our rules and they do so.??

Why is the only other animal on earth able to help us, sniff out disease , seziers, guide the blind and aid the deaf.??  Find explosives, drugs and in some studies just by holding a dog peoples blood pressure, tension go down.

WTF is it with a dog that causes grown men to cry when they die, to raise monuments to them and feel great relief when our leaders own a dog.???

Regardless of the experts that maintain that dogs evolved to suite man kind, I question this.  Nothing else has done so in the Animal world,  why just the dog???

What experts are alleging that dogs evolved at all?

Dogs are the result of selective, deliberate breeding by man. 
Eugenics and evolution are entirely unrelated.
Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline Wineslob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13650
  • Reputation: +605/-191
  • Sucking the life out of Liberty
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 01:49:03 PM »
Quote
All Things Edible (and how to prepare them)


I'm sure if you went to Vietnam...............................
“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

        -- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 BC (106-43 BC)

The unobtainable is unknown at Zombo.com



"Practice random violence and senseless acts of brutality"

If you want a gender neutral bathroom, go pee in the forest.

Offline Thor

  • General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!
  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13103
  • Reputation: +362/-297
  • Native Texan & US Navy (ret)
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 02:27:28 PM »
I guess that I had a sick sense of humor this morning.......
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

I AM your General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Evil_Conservative

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7845
  • Reputation: +553/-194
  • Oh snap!
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 03:17:28 PM »
I guess that I had a sick sense of humor this morning.......

I thought I was going to open this and see Vesta listing recipes for dog.
You may call me Jessica or Jess.

Offline debk

  • Topic Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12473
  • Reputation: +467/-58
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 03:24:11 PM »
I guess that I had a sick sense of humor this morning.......


I'm sure you had a reason for moving this thread into here...want to share what it was?  :confused:
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline Odin's Hand

  • is your new god!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5486
  • Reputation: +366/-25
  • Quarters Champion
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 03:54:00 PM »
I thought I was going to open this and see Vesta listing recipes for dog.

I thought she was petitioning them.
"Hell is full of good wishes and desires"~St. Bernhard of Clairvaux

"Brave men are found where brave men are honored."~Aristotle

"Generally speaking, the "Way of the Warrior" is resolute acceptance of death."~ Miyamoto Musashi

Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2011, 11:55:50 AM »
For Vesta:

Jason Lake and his dog Dante. 
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OAh0fj_m0M&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]
Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline vesta111

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9712
  • Reputation: +492/-1153
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 12:46:32 PM »
For Vesta:

Jason Lake and his dog Dante. 
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OAh0fj_m0M&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

This is amazing work on training dogs , but dogs are dogs, could one train 15 Taco Bell dogs to go on pack and attack what they they were directed to do.????

I have read that those little fellas were once trained to to run down deer and ham string them.

Depending on the breed it may be difficult to get Basset hounds to go on the attack, however a good trainer can do wonders.

Not so much the dog but the trainer that spends hundreds of hours training a dog, it is not the dog that is trained to get the rewards but the human that trains them that needs to get  the accolades. 

Darn any dog can do what ever but it the human that spends the time to train and developer the dogs full potential that makes me stand up  and cheer.



Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 12:52:27 PM »
This is amazing work on training dogs , but dogs are dogs, could one train 15 Taco Bell dogs to go on pack and attack what they they were directed to do.????


No.
Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2011, 02:34:43 PM »
Dogs cannot do what they aren't designed to do.
You'll get one-off dogs in any group, but very few breeds can consistently do protection work.
Chihuahuas aren't one of them.

No trainer who knew anything about protection training would work with a Bassett.
They're hounds, not working dogs.  They track and trail- that's it.


There's a reason breeds are grouped by purpose; herding, working, hound, sporting, etc.

To do protection work requires three drives to be present in the dog, at the right degrees and with the right balance to one another.  Prey drive, defense drive and fight drive.
Those are just to train a dog to bite and fight a man.
To teach him to do it under your direction, and be controllable throughout requires a high degree of biddability.

Very few breeds of dogs have all of those elements present.
Even in the breeds that DO have them, maybe every 1 in 100 will actually have it.
After that it will take 2-5 years of intense (7 days a week) training to develop those skills until you have a well-trained dog.

German Shepherds, Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Shepherds are really the only three breeds that are "all-purpose".

They can, and do, compete at high levels in virtually every form of dog sport there is.
Agility, herding, fly-ball, Schutzhund, Ring Sport, hunting, sledding/skijoring, Police Service, Military Working Dogs, Search and Rescue, cadaver detection, Service Dogs, the list goes on and on.

If you need a dog for a very narrow range of duties, you go to what it was bred for.
Need a prisoner take-down dog?  A Rottie would be great.
Need a dog that can take down a prisoner in a cell, and track him for 15 miles if he escapes, and detect drugs in the cell?  Get a GSD.
Need a dog that can do anything?  Get a GSD.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 02:40:25 PM by MP_Sarge »
Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline Thor

  • General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!
  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13103
  • Reputation: +362/-297
  • Native Texan & US Navy (ret)
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2011, 11:39:31 PM »
I dunno, I've known a few chihuahuas in my life that sure liked to bite on strangers. Of course their bite wasn't much. They're more suited as "alarm dogs", IMO.
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

I AM your General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson

Offline Boudicca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5162
  • Reputation: +413/-61
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2011, 11:51:21 PM »
I dunno, I've known a few chihuahuas in my life that sure liked to bite on strangers. Of course their bite wasn't much. They're more suited as "alarm dogs", IMO.

My ears are still ringing from my sister's two yappers last summer. :lmao:  Chihuahuas have alot of attitude, if nothing else.

I do believe that nine dogs out of ten, faced with an intruder into their owner's domain with said owner in danger, will not hesitate to attack, and if necessary, lay down their lives.

That, Vesta, is one reason mankind loves dogs.  I adore my cats and they are soothing as hell when they cuddle and purr with me, but I harbor no illusions as to my first line of defense should someone threaten me.  Hell, the cats would be hiding behind ME, expecting me to protect them. :lmao:
Sneaking into a country doesn't make you an immigrant any
more than breaking into someone's house makes you part of the family.
(Poster bolky from thehill.com blog discussion)

Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2011, 01:55:36 AM »
It really just depends.

For a dog that has its entire life looked to us as the leader, it is counter-intuitive for it to assume the role of protecting us.
99.9% of intruders will be intimidated by a big, scary bark, and that's all most of us need.
A large, barking dog will buy you time to get to your gun.

Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2011, 02:13:39 AM »
Barely related pic of my dog.
Because how friggin' adorable is she, seriously?

Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline vesta111

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9712
  • Reputation: +492/-1153
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2011, 03:43:05 AM »
Barely related pic of my dog.
Because how friggin' adorable is she, seriously?



I have read that dogs that are trained or UN trained hate it when the handler is wearing sun glasses as they cannot see their eyes.  Is this what you have found out??

Your dog is watching you face so intently the pix made me think of that.    Oh yes another question, some books tell that the dog can catch the --with no word to call it---Vibes of the handler, be the handler nervous  or confident. Is this true???

I have books that disagree completely with each other on training dogs, gone on the Internet and scanned at least 100 sites for information and still cannot decide what [ training Method ] to use.

I do want to train the puppy who is 18 months old, she will sit, come and is house broken but must wait for warm weather.

 My use is to have her become a service dog for me, she is small, compact a Brussels Griffon or so the breeder swears---not sure of that as she is twice the size of that breed.

I feel comfortable speaking to you MP_Sarge as when I speak to trainers in my area they all have a stake in the game, my money.

I am so glad you found us---TY


Offline Boudicca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5162
  • Reputation: +413/-61
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2011, 08:53:58 AM »
Barely related pic of my dog.
Because how friggin' adorable is she, seriously?



Your sweetie is very adorable!
As for my imagined scenario of my dogs attacking an intruder who was threatening me.  I guess they do kinda look to me as a leader, but a very benign leader who feeds them and sits outside with them while they gallop around the yard.  Lord knows they don't listen to me very often. :whatever:
Their barking and hurling themselves at our front door whenever someone comes up to the house does tend to keep out solicitors.  My FEDEX guy knows by now to ring the bell and then wait for me to open the garage door so he can haul in my wine, coffee or whatever else I ordered, without getting run over by the dogs. :lmao:

They are amazingly considerate of the toddler and cats running around, through and over them.  I suppose it's obvious Iblove my dogs, as you love your sweetie, but you are definitely more of her Alpha than I am for mine.  Maybe I'm their Omega.
Sneaking into a country doesn't make you an immigrant any
more than breaking into someone's house makes you part of the family.
(Poster bolky from thehill.com blog discussion)

Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2011, 09:52:21 AM »
I have read that dogs that are trained or UN trained hate it when the handler is wearing sun glasses as they cannot see their eyes.  Is this what you have found out??

Your dog is watching you face so intently the pix made me think of that.    Oh yes another question, some books tell that the dog can catch the --with no word to call it---Vibes of the handler, be the handler nervous  or confident. Is this true???




Depends on the dog, but generally they prefer to see your eyes.  Not being able to can make a dog uneasy.  
This is *more* of an issue with other people than it is the owner/handler, but its generally a good practice to make sure your dog can see your eyes- I wear glasses, but generally take them off to train.

Dogs pick up on a lot of cues.  Our posture, tone of voice, facial expression, breathing rate... It gives them a LOT of information about our moods and intentions.
We've selectively bred them (some breed and lines more than others) to emphasize those abilities.
This is why they respond to our joy and sorrow.
People who get angry or frustrated quickly will always struggle with training dogs.  The clever ones quickly learn that if they can frustrate you, you'll give up and they won't have to do it.  They then go out of their way to piss you off.

That's why I continue to advocate for a Veteran w/ PTSD dog training program.
Vets with PTSD would benefit from taking young dogs and training them in basic obedience for Service Dog Orgs, who could then train advanced skills and give them to Vets with disabilities.
Dog training is the best therapy there is.
Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline IassaFTots

  • In WTF-istan, I am considered a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13968
  • Reputation: +761/-274
  • Oh well, I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway.
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2011, 10:39:09 AM »
Quote
That's why I continue to advocate for a Veteran w/ PTSD dog training program.
Vets with PTSD would benefit from taking young dogs and training them in basic obedience for Service Dog Orgs, who could then train advanced skills and give them to Vets with disabilities.
Dog training is the best therapy there is.

I love that idea.  I really do.
R.I.P. LC and Crockspot.  Miss you guys.

The infinite is possible at zombocom.  www.zombo.com

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." ~ Martin Luther King
 
“Political Correctness is about turning a blind eye to painful reality because your comfortable feelings are more important to you than saving lives and providing quality of life to people who work their ass off to be productive and are a benefit to this great American Dream"  ~Ted Nugent

Offline MP_Sarge

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Reputation: +35/-70
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2011, 02:52:21 PM »
Short vid of the puppers:

http://pnwschutzhunder.tumblr.com/post/4260729113/heeling-down-out-of-motion-danke-von

I pushed it for about a year before I got out, when I was working in the office that was responsible for Veteran reintegration.
It never really caught on, because there aren't enough empirical studies done that show a marked benefit to *training* dogs.
The ones that do exist are almost entirely in prison environments, and people refuse to look any further after that.

My argument was that the benefits were many-fold.

First, training dogs forces you to learn self-control.  This can be a really important skill for Vets with PTSD to re-learn, as a lot of us struggle with anger management.
There is a very humanizing element to working with dogs, that can't really be quantified but is very, very real.  The tendency to wall off and shut down emotionally quickly crumbles in the face of a warm, wiggly puppy.
Training service dogs for other Vets with serious physical injuries is a terrific balm to survivors guilt.

*shrug*
I'll keep kicking and screaming until someone in the head shed listens.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 03:00:07 PM by MP_Sarge »
Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans

Offline FreeBorn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2733
  • Reputation: +229/-45
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Dogs....
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 02:38:17 PM »
It kind of makes me wonder about all this evolution stuff and what not.   

We hear that the dog comes from the wolf etc but darn one cannot house break a wolf or Coyote, why can we train a dog to live amongst us by our rules and they do so.??

Why is the only other animal on earth able to help us, sniff out disease , seziers, guide the blind and aid the deaf.??  Find explosives, drugs and in some studies just by holding a dog peoples blood pressure, tension go down.

WTF is it with a dog that causes grown men to cry when they die, to raise monuments to them and feel great relief when our leaders own a dog.???

Regardless of the experts that maintain that dogs evolved to suite man kind, I question this.  Nothing else has done so in the Animal world,  why just the dog???
Check this out, Vesta. Might answer some questions for you. National Geographic recently covered this Russian fox farm with an in depth article. Very cool experiment. Selectively breeding the tamest foxes over several generations produced a very friendly animal that looked very different from it's wild forebears. The ears drooped, tails shortened and coat color changed. They also began to bark, something wild canids do not do, only domestic dogs bark.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enrLSfxTqZ0[/youtube]


"How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin; And how do you tell an anti-communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin." ~Ronald Reagan