Author Topic: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......  (Read 11363 times)

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Offline AllosaursRus

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Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« on: February 09, 2011, 03:55:30 PM »
Bringin' this over from a hijack in the DUmpster for those who are interested.



Help me out here, I have lived a long time with an antenna on the roof or rabbit ears on top of the TV to receive reception.    No one knew what I was watching, or what the intire neighborhood was or not watching, or State for that matter.   Same with radio, buy the divice and listen to what you wish and who is to know.  Something called the Neilson ratings came along, 20,000 family's country wide agreed to be tracked and if those few people did not like a program then off the air it went.

Along came cable and now what you watch can be tracked by the cable company.  From your home or work site.

Then there came up some thing about Digital or something that would make older perfectally working TV unable to operate without cable or roof top antennas without some kind of converter box one could in some cases get free from some government site.

What about radio now, how does the station or advertisers know just how many people are tuning in to them every day???

Is this a convenience for us or spying to find our soft spot to spend money.?

Vesta......your cable company does not have the capability to know what you watch.

Audience measurements for television are done by a company called Nielsen.......the way that they measure audiences is that people (viewers) volunteer to have a "Nielsen meter" placed on their TV, and the meter tracks what that TV only is tuned to at any particular time.  It's a "random sample" of the audience that have the meters installed.

Much like political "polls", the audience statistics are drawn form this random sample of viewers that have a meter installed.  It doesn't matter whether you receive your signal from an antenna, cable, or satellite, the "meter" interacts with your TV receiver, and logs the programming that the family watches.  A phone line is plugged into the Nielsen meter, and it "reports" its accumulated data by dialing a toll-free number and uploading it in the middle of the night, after the TV set has been turned off.  It is all done with the participation of the family involved.

A different company (Arbitron) and procedure (manual logs) is used to develop radio ratings, but they too, are based on a random sampling of the audience.

doc

I wouldn't be too sure that the cable companies don't know what you're watching. When we went back to cable from satellite and had some problems, I called Comcast, and during the trouble shooting process, the woman I was talking had full control of both cable boxes.  Now whether they would be set up to monitor every one all the time might be a different matter.

Yeah, cable and satellite can be tracked. How else could ya get Pay Per View? My satellite receiver has a place for a phone line. If you're not plugged in, no pay per view. The receiver dials up the provider sometime in the middle of the night and downloads it's info back to the office. I know this because when I was writin' bonds, the damn thing would tie my phone up for about ten minutes around 3 in the mornin'.

Although cable (and satellite) companies have that capability for diagnostic purposes, AR is correct inasmuch as it can only be done through a phone connection for the return path.  Therefore, without tying up your phone line, it isn't done.  They have the capability to "see" and issue commands to the chipset in a cable box, but there is nowhere in the box to actually store viewer use data.

Most cable companies don't have the electronic sophistication to provide dependable ongoing service, let alone monitoring their subscribers.  I've been a number of cable "head-ends" as well as their master control facilities, and they simply are not that "high tech".

AT&T's "Uverse" system, which is delivering digital video on demand over "twisted pair" phone lines could possibly incorporate this ability.......in order to provide "programming on demand" assumes a return path for user data, but that would be the only current system with that ability.

doc

Although cable (and satellite) companies have that capability for diagnostic purposes, AR is correct inasmuch as it can only be done through a phone connection for the return path.  Therefore, without tying up your phone line, it isn't done.  They have the capability to "see" and issue commands to the chipset in a cable box, but there is nowhere in the box to actually store viewer use data.

Most cable companies don't have the electronic sophistication to provide dependable ongoing service, let alone monitoring their subscribers.  I've been a number of cable "head-ends" as well as their master control facilities, and they simply are not that "high tech".

AT&T's "Uverse" system, which is delivering digital video on demand over "twisted pair" phone lines could possibly incorporate this ability.......in order to provide "programming on demand" assumes a return path for user data, but that would be the only current system with that ability.

doc

I believe all the Broadband services that bundle their stuff together have the ability. Oh, and my receiver has the ability to store data. When we went to straight cell phone and got rid of the land line, one receiver still had 2 pay per view movies on it that didn't get uploaded to the office. They're still there and I have never seen them on the bill. So satellite has the ability to store info but without the land line it has no way of reporting it.

True, a two-way continuous path is required.  Your satellite receiver has the ability to store a few kB of data for pay services billing, but nowhere near the capacity to store viewer history.  I use Dish Network,, and you can get into the diagnostics and setup menus and see the system RAM.  In my receiver it is only 15 kB.

Interactive TV is just being rolled out, and THAT includes a two-way path (i.e. UVerse), which incorporates technology similiar to T3/dsl to transmit streaming (and stored) video (both ways), but this technology is just coming on line.  Even with the capability, one would question WHY a provider would want that info on an ongoing basis.  With systems like UVerse, they KNOW what you are watching, because only one (or two, depending on how many receivers are in use) data streams (channels) are sent to your receiver at a time.  Far less bandwidth required to accomplish it this way than the old system of always having every channel available at the same time at the back of your TV receiver.

Digital cable, even bundled with VIOP and internet access uses a different system, which is rapidly being obsoleted by the interactive one.

This is an interesting subject, but it's off-topic for the thread......if someone wishes to continue we can start another thread.

doc

I think I got all the relevant posts. Anyone see one I missed, just add it.

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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 04:00:25 PM »
Cool.....

After some thought however, I shoulda known better than to respond to one of Vesta's posts.....what the hell was I thinking?!?!

doc
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 04:06:03 PM »
I don't think it takes all that much ram in order to store info, as Cookies pretty much track what we do on the interwebs and take up very little space on the hard drive. Granted we can control Cookies on our 'puters, but inside a satellite or cable box that you have no control over is a whole new can 'o worms.

I admit the older ones more than likely couldn't do it but nowadays they can put 2 GiG and more on a thumb drive. Take that and add Tivo into the equation, and it isn't that difficult to realize just how easy it could be.

After all cable/satellite outfits sells advertising on all these obscure channels and need to know what to charge their customers. One only has to look at "Paid Programming" to understand that.

ETA:

Since the cable channels are far fewer than the sites on the internet, I see this as a pretty easy thing to pull off.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 04:15:25 PM by AllosaursRus »
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 04:20:17 PM »
I don't think it takes all that much ram in order to store info, as Cookies pretty much track what we do on the interwebs and take up very little space on the hard drive. Granted we can control Cookies on our 'puters, but inside a satellite or cable box that you have no control over is a whole new can 'o worms.

I admit the older ones more than likely couldn't do it but nowadays they can put 2 GiG and more on a thumb drive. Take that and add Tivo into the equation, and it isn't that difficult to realize just how easy it could be.

After all cable/satellite outfits sells advertising on all these obscure channels and need to know what to charge their customers. One only has to look at "Paid Programming" to understand that.

Correct....it's easy enough to do, but the universal problem with ALL television providers is bandwidth......bandwidth wasted on a return path is bandwidth that cannot be sold for additional downstream programming.  Since each "type" of system has only a finite amount of it available, to them it's precious, and they don't waste it on trivial stuff that generates no revenue, like knowing what you watch.

This is the reason that cable (and satellite) systems charge stiff fees for networks like ALgore's for putting them on........there isn't enough revenue generated by some insignificant network to provide the carrier with a payday.

Now the only exception to this is the "Home Shopping Channels", of various stripes and styles.......they get on systems free, because they give the cable system a "piece of the action".  On a home shopping channel, when viewers see it and buy something, the toll-free number at the bottom of the ordering screen is different for every carrier, that way the network knows what system is generating the business......and sends the cable company a percentage of their sales every month.  Also the reason that ALL cable companies run these shopping channels in their bottom "tier", so you get them whether you want them or not.......they  are BIG moneymakers.

doc
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 04:28:13 PM »
Correct....it's easy enough to do, but the universal problem with ALL television providers is bandwidth......bandwidth wasted on a return path is bandwidth that cannot be sold for additional downstream programming.  Since each "type" of system has only a finite amount of it available, to them it's precious, and they don't waste it on trivial stuff that generates no revenue, like knowing what you watch.

doc

But the cable wouldn't be carrying a full load 24/7. Why not allow the box to track your viewing, then send the info back during periods of low usage like the wee hours of the morning?

Offline TVDOC

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 04:39:50 PM »
But the cable wouldn't be carrying a full load 24/7. Why not allow the box to track your viewing, then send the info back during periods of low usage like the wee hours of the morning?

Doesn't work that way with cable........EVERY channel they carry is available in the connection to your set 24/7, whether you are watching them or not........all the bandwidth is used.

With the new "interactive" systems, only the channel you want to watch is routed to you, by selecting it on the "box" (this selection signals a switch in their server to direct that program to you)......this uses far less bandwidth, and frees it up for other services that you can use, like downloading movies to your TIVO or other digital recording system.  I don't have UVerse, but it's capable of interrupting a program while you go to the bathroom, and continuing it when you return........it can do anything EXCEPT remove the commercials (it could do that too,, but they won't allow that).

doc
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 04:50:43 PM »
Doesn't work that way with cable........EVERY channel they carry is available in the connection to your set 24/7, whether you are watching them or not........all the bandwidth is used.

With the new "interactive" systems, only the channel you want to watch is routed to you, by selecting it on the "box" (this selection signals a switch in their server to direct that program to you)......this uses far less bandwidth, and frees it up for other services that you can use, like downloading movies to your TIVO or other digital recording system.  I don't have UVerse, but it's capable of interrupting a program while you go to the bathroom, and continuing it when you return........it can do anything EXCEPT remove the commercials (it could do that too,, but they won't allow that).

doc

We have a DVR/tuner box, but Comcast also offers On Demand, both free and paid shows.  That is why I was thinking that they might have unused bandwidth at times.  Our internet also comes into the house on the same cable.  I have done speed tests on the internet service and it is somewhat slower during the early evenings.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 05:15:03 PM »
Do you really care if your cable company or satellite provider knows what you are or have been watching?
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 05:36:52 PM »
But the cable wouldn't be carrying a full load 24/7. Why not allow the box to track your viewing, then send the info back during periods of low usage like the wee hours of the morning?

This is exactly what my satellite did in order to track pay per view. They only need to upload the info once a week or once a day. However, they were doin' it with the phone land line, not the satellite connection. So Doc is probably right but only to the extent they aren't doin' with a "twisted Pair", yet. They do have limited bandwith, so unless it's truly interactive, I don't see it happenin' with standard cable/satellite.

I still see where a unit can store "Cookies" in the "box" though, and upload that info once a week, once a month, or even once a year. They must have some idea who's watchin' what, in order to charge for their advertising. Just like a server, you can tell when it is bein' taxed to it's limits, shit starts slowin' down.

My satellite internet transfers both ways, so actually when they bundle the two together, it is possible. Doesn't DirectTV have an internet and TV feed thru the same satellite dish?
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 05:45:53 PM »
Do you really care if your cable company or satellite provider knows what you are or have been watching?

Actually no, until they start abusing it, which does happen more often than not with every other thing technologically speaking. Until someone ties their hands, ie lawsuits or some idiot bureaucrat, they push it to the limits.

I only let the internet put cookies on my machine that I allow from sites I okay. Anyone who doesn't, is askin' for trouble.
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Offline Evil_Conservative

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 06:24:15 PM »
Do you really care if your cable company or satellite provider knows what you are or have been watching?

I watch judge shows, Price Is Right, and Glenn Beck during the day.  Evening hours vary depending on week night.  I did one of those Neilson rating things.  They sent us the booklet with cash in it.  I was like, "how nice." and I filled out their survey and mailed it back.  They never asked to hook something up to my TV.  I guess what I was watching wasn't interesting enough for them.  lol
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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 06:33:59 PM »
This is exactly what my satellite did in order to track pay per view. They only need to upload the info once a week or once a day. However, they were doing' it with the phone land line, not the satellite connection. So Doc is probably right but only to the extent they aren't doing' with a "twisted Pair", yet. They do have limited bandwith, so unless it's truly interactive, I don't see it happenin' with standard cable/satellite.

I still see where a unit can store "Cookies" in the "box" though, and upload that info once a week, once a month, or even once a year. They must have some idea who's watchin' what, in order to charge for their advertising. Just like a server, you can tell when it is bein' taxed to it's limits, shit starts slowin' down.

My satellite internet transfers both ways, so actually when they bundle the two together, it is possible. Doesn't DirectTV have an internet and TV feed thru the same satellite dish?

This is why they DON'T monitor what everyone is watching, first they don't need to (Nielsen does it), and second, their internally generated numbers would be suspect, because they aren't developed by an outside source.....everyone in the TV business subscribes to Nielsen Ratings Service.  Nielsen makes the determination (as described above) what everyone is watching at what times.....from this data,  they prepare a "ratings book" which is used by the advertising industry to buy ad space on various networks.  The Nielsen ratings numbers (numbers of viewers watching) derive into a "share". and the larger the share of viewers a program draws, the more that can be charged for ad spots in that particular program.

The most important Nielsen ratings numbers are generated four times per year during what the TV industry calls "Sweeps".  Now "Sweeps" are one-week (approximately) periods when all the broadcasters run their best and newest programming, designed to draw the biggest audiences......for example, "American Idol" will run their grand finale during "Sweeps" week.  The audience numbers generated during these periods set the rates for advertising costs per program for the next quarter.

Since an independent outside company is already doing the work......there is no need to develop the infrastructure to do it yourself.  Even if you did, it couldn't be used to determine advertising costs, as the industry has standardized on the Nielsen system.

doc
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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2011, 06:41:23 PM »
I watch judge shows, Price Is Right, and Glenn Beck during the day. Evening hours vary depending on week night.  I did one of those Neilson rating things. They sent us the booklet with cash in it.  I was like, "how nice." and I filled out their survey and mailed it back. They never asked to hook something up to my TV.  I guess what I was watching wasn't interesting enough for them.  lol

What you received was what Nielsen calls a "screening questionare".  It is designed to determine if your family's TV viewing habits are "typical", and conform to their standards.  If you pass the screening process, you will receive a "meter" for your set (and be compensated for it).  Since you didn't hear back from them, my guess is that they found your viewing habits somehow outside the normal range, a statistical anomaly.

doc
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Offline Evil_Conservative

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2011, 07:40:01 PM »
What you received was what Nielsen calls a "screening questionare".  It is designed to determine if your family's TV viewing habits are "typical", and conform to their standards.  If you pass the screening process, you will receive a "meter" for your set (and be compensated for it).  Since you didn't hear back from them, my guess is that they found your viewing habits somehow outside the normal range, a statistical anomaly.

doc

Don't they need a land line to upload that information from your TV?  Not sure if I understood your post explaining that meter.  We don't have a land line.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2011, 07:48:14 PM »
Doc,can satellite providers tell what you tune in to and record the info on their own systems so as to pass along the info to customers.

I guess what I am asking is that even if my receiver doesn`t hold the info can they on their own equipment much as a website owner can track where hits originate from?

Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2011, 07:56:39 PM »
Doc,can satellite providers tell what you tune in to and record the info on their own systems so as to pass along the info to customers.

I guess what I am asking is that even if my receiver doesn`t hold the info can they on their own equipment much as a website owner can track where hits originate from?

I can answer that. The satellite beams all the channels all the time. They have no idea who is watching what from the beam. There is no individual beam directed at any particular TV. they all receive it all and the decoder splits it into the channels.

Internet is a whole nutha animal. You request a particular piece of info and individual servers respond to that request.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2011, 08:14:12 PM »
I can answer that. The satellite beams all the channels all the time. They have no idea who is watching what from the beam. There is no individual beam directed at any particular TV. they all receive it all and the decoder splits it into the channels.

Internet is a whole nutha animal. You request a particular piece of info and individual servers respond to that request.

Thanks Al,was curious though.
I have had the satellite since the late 90s and have never had a phone line hooked to it but as was stated they still can change my programing at my request either by phone or online I assume.
Have never done any pay per view so no idea on that.

Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2011, 08:21:25 PM »
Thanks Al,was curious though.
I have had the satellite since the late 90s and have never had a phone line hooked to it but as was stated they still can change my programing at my request either by phone or online I assume.
Have never done any pay per view so no idea on that.

Yeah, they can adjust your channels with the beam by sending info to your reciever. But ya have to call 'em in order for them to know how and when to send the particular signal to update the "box".
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2011, 09:23:23 PM »
Thanks Al,was curious though.
I have had the satellite since the late 90s and have never had a phone line hooked to it but as was stated they still can change my programing at my request either by phone or online I assume.
Have never done any pay per view so no idea on that.

Your satellite receiver has a "smartcard" in it (looks like a credit card, generally in a slot behind a removable panel), this card has your account number, the receiver serial number, and the manufacturer's SIM code on it.  The satellite company can transmit an instructional signal keyed only to YOUR receiver, embedded in their normal transmissions (using the data on that card), that will give the receiver instructions as to what plan (group of channels) to make available to you as you view their signal.

A phone connection is not required to view pay-per-view programming.......both satellite carriers will allow you to call their 800 number, and order the movie, etc, and have it manually made available on your receiver through the above process......they then just add it to your bill.

doc

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2011, 09:34:59 PM »
Don't they need a land line to upload that information from your TV?  Not sure if I understood your post explaining that meter.  We don't have a land line.

If you actually ended up  being a "Nielsen family", and had a meter on your set, you would have to have a landline for it......not having a phone line available would disqualify you from participation.

I'm told that there are new Nielsen meters becoming available that communicate via a cellular device that is built-in.  I've been out of the business for a couple of years, so they may be in use now.  This would also presuppose that cellular coverage was available in the area.

doc
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2011, 09:39:39 PM »
Your satellite receiver has a "smartcard" in it (looks like a credit card, generally in a slot behind a removable panel), this card has your account number, the receiver serial number, and the manufacturer's SIM code on it.  The satellite company can transmit an instructional signal keyed only to YOUR receiver, embedded in their normal transmissions (using the data on that card), that will give the receiver instructions as to what plan (group of channels) to make available to you as you view their signal.

A phone connection is not required to view pay-per-view programming.......both satellite carriers will allow you to call their 800 number, and order the movie, etc, and have it manually made available on your receiver through the above process......they then just add it to your bill.

doc



Never tried the 800 number thing, but I cannot use the receiver itself to order movies without it plugged into a land line. Also, if you have movies or what not that haven't been cleared since the last billing cycle, it will reject the request. So there must be a fail safe in it somewhere that they can cipher thru the download.

I do know that's how my local sports bar orders pay per view fights though, and they're not even a subscriber.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 09:42:19 PM by AllosaursRus »
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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2011, 09:53:09 PM »
Never tried the 800 number thing, but I cannot use the receiver itself to order movies without it plugged into a land line. Also, if you have movies or what not that haven't been cleared since the last billing cycle, it will reject the request. So there must be a fail safe in it somewhere that they can cipher thru the download.

I do know that's how my local sports bar orders pay per view fights though, and they're not even a subscriber.

The only thing that needs to be remembered if you order programming via phone is that you need to allow about thirty minutes for the authorization to be transmitted to your receiver.  Cut it too close, and loose the first part of the movie.......most of them are sold now on an "all day" basis, so I suppose that you could watch it again, but that part is annoying.

This is the one BIG advantage that the new cable digital video on demand systems have......if you request programming, the response is instantaneous.

doc
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Offline Evil_Conservative

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 10:19:27 PM »
If you actually ended up  being a "Nielsen family", and had a meter on your set, you would have to have a landline for it......not having a phone line available would disqualify you from participation.

I'm told that there are new Nielsen meters becoming available that communicate via a cellular device that is built-in.  I've been out of the business for a couple of years, so they may be in use now.  This would also presuppose that cellular coverage was available in the area.

doc

Gotcha.  Thanks.  :)

I hope they send us their survey again next sweeps.  It was fun participating.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2011, 10:27:32 PM »
Gotcha.  Thanks.  :)

I hope they send us their survey again next sweeps.  It was fun participating.

My wife filled out one of those Nielsen diaries recently.  We won't hear from them again. Fox News Channel was the most watched channel. :)

Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Big Brother and your Cable/Satellite TV......
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2011, 10:36:59 PM »
My wife filled out one of those Nielsen diaries recently.  We won't hear from them again. Fox News Channel was the most watched channel. :)

heh, mine would read:

Fox News
The Military Channel
The Science Channel
Investigative Discovery
Tru Channel
Animal Planet
The Cartoon Network ( whenever Robot Chicken is on )
USA ( when Criminal Intent is on )
A&E ( when The First 48 is airing )
History Channel ( when Pawn Stars is on or Wild West Tech )

That's about it.

I forgot one.....

CNBC ( when American Greed is on. I luv that show! Gives me ideas! )

Oh, and Turner Classic Movies! I'm a sucker for movies when the greats were still alive! They don't make 'em like that anymore!!!!!!

Ya have to understand I don't sleep more than about 2 hours at any one time, so I watch a lot of TV when you guys bail  late at night and there's no action here! Hehehehehehe!!!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:45:34 PM by AllosaursRus »
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