Author Topic: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space  (Read 6296 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« on: September 20, 2010, 10:49:53 AM »
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Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space

Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a new force of nature.

Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most distant planet in our solar system.

Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is being changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.

Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear power plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The team says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 11:49:12 AM »
The force of "The One" is insurmountable.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 12:05:14 PM »
Maybe another unexplained phenomena caused by "dark matter".

Offline The Hollywood NeoCon

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 12:18:58 PM »
The force of "The One" is insurmountable.

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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 12:59:21 PM »
Maybe another unexplained phenomena caused by "dark matter".

At the negligible rate of deceleration of 6 mph/century, the most plausable theory would be particle friction.......contrary to popular belief, space is not "empty"........

doc
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Offline Godot showed up

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 01:49:21 PM »
At the negligible rate of deceleration of 6 mph/century, the most plausable theory would be particle friction.......contrary to popular belief, space is not "empty"........

doc

Surely they must have ruled this out, TV. This occurred to me too, so it must be one of the first things they thought of.

I don't know what all they've considered, but I'd keep in mind that the probe could be being pushed, not pulled. Possibly observable effects of dark energy?

Offline TVDOC

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 02:03:09 PM »
Surely they must have ruled this out, TV. This occurred to me too, so it must be one of the first things they thought of.

I don't know what all they've considered, but I'd keep in mind that the probe could be being pushed, not pulled. Possibly observable effects of dark energy?

The Pioneer series probes were not equipped with any instrumentation to detect such effects ("Dark Force/Matter was not even theorized when they were launched).......their basic function, and the bulk of their payload is devoted to photo (infrared thru X-ray) recon......

They are very crude by today's standards, and basically only possess the ability to do system diagnostics beyond their primary mission........they have about as much computing power as a multi-function wristwatch today.

The "slowdown" can be measured by analyzing doppler shift of the radio signals returning to earth, but there is nothing onboard to do any real analysis.......it's basically speculation.

doc
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Offline Godot showed up

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 02:16:40 PM »
The Pioneer series probes were not equipped with any instrumentation to detect such effects ("Dark Force/Matter was not even theorized when they were launched).......their basic function, and the bulk of their payload is devoted to photo (infrared thru X-ray) recon......

They are very crude by today's standards, and basically only possess the ability to do system diagnostics beyond their primary mission........they have about as much computing power as a multi-function wristwatch today.

The "slowdown" can be measured by analyzing doppler shift of the radio signals returning to earth, but there is nothing onboard to do any real analysis.......it's basically speculation.

doc

TV, I didn't mean at all  that the probes were detecting such effects though any instrumentation--not only is Pioneer not so equipped, NOTHING is so equipped. There's no such instrumentation, and no one has any real idea of what dark energy may be.  I just meant that the probe could be experiencing the expansion of the universe caused, or so it's thought, by dark energy, and that as a chunk of metal it's a crude detector, as any celestial body is, in some way, of dark energy by dint of its participation in the universe at all. In Pioneer's case, it might have become more noticeable because of its highly predictable velocity and small size.

Offline The Hollywood NeoCon

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 02:20:45 PM »
Oh...I'm sorry...I thought this was the naked chicks and beer thread.

Srsly...had NO idea this was a Chi Beta Phi meeting.

Dorks.  :-)

Offline TVDOC

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 02:57:20 PM »
TV, I didn't mean at all that the probes were detecting such effects though any instrumentation--not only is Pioneer not so equipped, NOTHING is so equipped. There's no such instrumentation, and no one has any real idea of what dark energy may be.  I just meant that the probe could be experiencing the expansion of the universe caused, or so it's thought, by dark energy, and that as a chunk of metal it's a crude detector, as any celestial body is, in some way, of dark energy by dint of its participation in the universe at all. In Pioneer's case, it might have become more noticeable because of its highly predictable velocity and small size.

There actually is a way to detect "Dark Matter", at least theoretically, but it certainly can't be done on the planet (yet).......I'm much more inclined to attribute this to the friction that I spoke of before, or, since it is far enough out beyond our solar system, it certainly could be gravitational (or effluent particle) effects from another, heretofore unknown celestial body (or the remains of one that has disintegrated).  Passing close to a "free asteroid" ("free" defined as not confined to an orbital system) would do it handily.

To accomplish a deceleration of 6 mph/century.....just based on some rough calculations, would be caused by the probe passing within 100 miles of an iron object possessing a mass of about 100 Kg.......I would speculate that the chances of something akin to that happening are far greater than venturing into the esoteric.....you may be correct, however, the simplest solution is generally the best one in cases where there are such a plethora of unknowns.

Although it is true that the universe is still expanding, it is far more likely that this effect would be manifested in the appearance of the probe to accelerate, rather than decelerate, when its velocity is measured from earth, as we now know that the expansion of the universe is not in fact, linear.......in other words, parts of it are expanding faster (relatively speaking) than others, likely due to secondary phenomena which happened within the first few seconds following the "Big Bang".......

doc
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 02:58:39 PM »
Oh...I'm sorry...I thought this was the naked chicks and beer thread.

Srsly...had NO idea this was a Chi Beta Phi meeting.

Dorks.  :-)

Well....this is the "Science Club"......

 :tongue:

doc
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Offline The Hollywood NeoCon

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 03:02:11 PM »
Well....this is the "Science Club"......

 :tongue:

doc

I know. I'm just having a shit day and felt like annoying good people for no particular reason.

Offline TVDOC

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 03:08:09 PM »
I know. I'm just having a shit day and felt like annoying good people for no particular reason.

Yeah...I've had more than a few of those myself.....hope yours gets better....

doc
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Offline Godot showed up

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 04:03:36 PM »
There actually is a way to detect "Dark Matter", at least theoretically, but it certainly can't be done on the planet (yet).......I'm much more inclined to attribute this to the friction that I spoke of before, or, since it is far enough out beyond our solar system, it certainly could be gravitational (or effluent particle) effects from another, heretofore unknown celestial body (or the remains of one that has disintegrated).  Passing close to a "free asteroid" ("free" defined as not confined to an orbital system) would do it handily.

To accomplish a deceleration of 6 mph/century.....just based on some rough calculations, would be caused by the probe passing within 100 miles of an iron object possessing a mass of about 100 Kg.......I would speculate that the chances of something akin to that happening are far greater than venturing into the esoteric.....you may be correct, however, the simplest solution is generally the best one in cases where there are such a plethora of unknowns.

Although it is true that the universe is still expanding, it is far more likely that this effect would be manifested in the appearance of the probe to accelerate, rather than decelerate, when its velocity is measured from earth, as we now know that the expansion of the universe is not in fact, linear.......in other words, parts of it are expanding faster (relatively speaking) than others, likely due to secondary phenomena which happened within the first few seconds following the "Big Bang".......

doc



Well I like the friction explanation better, too, but don't you think they must have ruled that out?


And as far as I know, although physicists are working on means to detect dark matter, they haven't succeeded, and they still haven't any idea of how to detect dark energy. There isn't even agreement that it is energy, although there's more consensus agreement that dark matter is some real kind of (non-atomic) matter.


The unneven expansion of the universe could mean that, relative to us, the probe might be experiencing a push in our direction rather than a push away from us (by dark energy). What we're observing is an inexplicable negative acceleration--like you say friction would be simplest as explanations go, but, again, how would this be a mystery if friction could account for it?


I suppose it could also be a local phenomenon, not some new force or manifestation of dark energy's effects, such as unusually high emissions from, say, a type 1a supernova, pushing back on the probe like some ancient wind (which would be friction). But, once again, by now wouldn't you think they'd have ruled out any kind of particle friction?

I like your idea of some undetected local gravity source doing the work, but wouldn't that also change Pioneer's  vector?









Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 04:03:49 PM »
Hmm, it does seem that particle friction would have had a much more defined effect in the 'denser' environment of the inner Solar system, and therefore the parameters of it would be highly predictable and accounted for in the outer system.  If the matter there was far more dense than previously believed (Which would take onboard instrumentation, not just observed effects on a ballistic trajectory to determine) then you would think that would have also had predictable collateral effects on visible light coming through the region and proportionally-degraded signal strength from probe itself.
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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 06:00:50 PM »


I suppose it could also be a local phenomenon, not some new force or manifestation of dark energy's effects, such as unusually high emissions from, say, a type 1a supernova, pushing back on the probe like some ancient wind (which would be friction). But, once again, by now wouldn't you think they'd have ruled out any kind of particle friction?

I like your idea of some undetected local gravity source doing the work, but wouldn't that also change Pioneer's   vector?


It wouldn't if it passed directly (and fairly quickly) behind the probe,,,,,,and at the distance the probe is from earth right now, frankly a minor change in course would be virtually undetectable.  They know where it is within a block of space roughly 500,000 miles on a side.  Although the transmissions from the probe are tightly focused radio signals, the farther out it goes, the wider the "cone" of receivable radio signals becomes.

I don't think they CAN rule out a friction effect.....it is the simplest explanation, and there is no instrumentation to detect it (or dispute it).  There IS a detector onboard to measure "solar wind", but after nearly thirty years, whether it remains functioning, I wouldn't know.  The problem with that particular instrument is that it was permanently aimed at "our" sun following launch, and it would be therefore blind to such an effect coming from another direction.

What is kinda sad is that now that the technology has advanced by several orders of magnitude, why hasn't NASA launched more deep space probes, with much more sophisticated equipment aboard......compared to their other endeavors, they are extremely cheap research tools. The knowledge gained from both Pioneer(s) and the Voyager series has far exceeded expectations, they should be building on that.

The fact that they remain functional at all is a tribute to the engineers that designed them.........

doc









« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 06:03:52 PM by TVDOC »

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 06:33:01 PM »
It's slowing at 6 mph per 100 years and the measureable cone as to where it is is 500,000 miles on all sides....?...right?

Well, that's very small amount of change. I propose it's cause by a shift in time. Einstein showed, or at least predicted, that time was effected by gravity and speed. Could it be that the radio waves have been effected by a slight shift in time due to less gravity?

While there is a measureable doppler shift in sound, radio and light waves, could there not also be a "doppler shift" in time?
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 06:34:16 PM »
Is there any chance this could be caused by solar winds.?

We have stars out there 100 times the size of our sun, could it be the big boys are creating an effect akin to the under water currents in our seas.?

Not strong as the distance is so vast but just enough to repulse a small object.

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 07:07:09 PM »
It's slowing at 6 mph per 100 years and the measureable cone as to where it is is 500,000 miles on all sides....?...right?

Well, that's very small amount of change. I propose it's cause by a shift in time. Einstein showed, or at least predicted, that time was effected by gravity and speed. Could it be that the radio waves have been effected by a slight shift in time due to less gravity?

While there is a measureable doppler shift in sound, radio and light waves, could there not also be a "doppler shift" in time?

In order for that to occur, at least according to Einstein's Theory,  the vehicle would need to begin to approach the speed of light.......in order for spacial and dimensional abberations to become manifest, and it isn't going nearly that fast.

He DID theorize that space was "curved", at least in the mathematical sense, and when dealing with vast distances, this effect can be seen........I'm still gonna go with friction.....and the possibility of another body's gravitational pull causing the effect.

Its been out there for nearly thirty years, and this is the first time that a measurable change in velocity has been noticed......I'm thinking that had to have been caused by an outside intervention of some sort.

doc
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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 07:43:38 PM »

Its been out there for nearly thirty years, and this is the first time that a measurable change in velocity has been noticed......I'm thinking that had to have been caused by an outside intervention of some sort.

doc

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Offline vesta111

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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 06:00:10 PM »


I have a question about friction.

Will friction effect light rays when there is  little to no gravity?

Can there even be such a thing as friction out in space away from any gravity.?






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Re: Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 07:38:41 PM »
I have a question about friction.

Will friction effect light rays when there is  little to no gravity?

Can there even be such a thing as friction out in space away from any gravity.?


1.  Friction has nothing to do with gravity.  Friction is the product of two or more masses coming into physical contact with one another; 

2.  Gravity is an inherent property of matter.  Everything, from the smallest atomic particle to the densest black hole will exhibit a gravitational pull on any other mass in proximity to it; and

3.  (I'd have to defer to TVDOC on this one, but I think) since light is both energy and material (photons), a particle of light contacting with another particle of any sort should be subject to the effects of friction. (I'd be more than happy for a more experienced student of the physical sciences to correct me on this point if I am mistaken).
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