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Offline Ardent15

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"No new taxes"
« on: September 07, 2010, 10:09:12 PM »
Ever since George Bush Sr broke his infamous campaign pledge in 1990, the Republicans seem to have viewed tax raises of any kind as automatically toxic.

Look at the policies of George Bush Jr. He didn't raise taxes once. He had two massive tax cuts.

What I find ironic is that Ronald Reagan actually raised taxes several times, in addition to cutting them. The largest was in 1982 under the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 (TEFRA), which repealed some of the provisions in the massive Kemp-Roth tax cut of 1981. This was one of the largest peacetime tax increases in history.

Eisenhower, Nixon, and Ford weren't zealous tax-cutters. What happened? Why so much hostility to tax increases of any kind, under any circumstance?

Curious to know.

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 06:45:47 AM »
The reverse can be said about democrats. JFKs tax cuts were passed after his death and an economic boom was the result.

We are in a severe economic downturn. Everyone agrees that getting money into the economy will spur economic activity.

Supply-siders argue against taking money out of the economy in the first place, i.e. reducing taxes. Why would anyone want to invest if their risk is rewarded not with material prosperity but with inflation on top of consumption taxes on top of income taxes on top of capital gains taxes? If your money gets chewed up by taxes whenever you invest it doesn't take long to realize it is not safe investing.

And why, if money in the economy is the real issue, would you take money out of the economy just to wash it through the hands of countless bureaucrats and politicians before they get together in their little secret committees to decide where to put the money back into the economy?

If you use the Keynsian approach you gamble that every dollar spent on public projects will net more than a dollar's return in follow-on economic activity, i.e. the road between Factory A and Retailer B will result in enough economic revenue between the employers and consumers to cover the cost of the road and its upkeep.

Sounds good on paper except: the government needs money to build the road. If they tax the money up front the tax burden may stifle one or both businesses and/or depress consumer demand. The widget factory and widget sellers may decide the tax burden in their area precludes a reasonable return on their investment or the taxes on widgets pass through to consumers who balk at the cost.

If the government spends the money before they collect it they sell bonds or just print the money. In the latter case they sell instruments that demand interest payments. If the government was hoping on a $1.20 return for every $1 spent on the road they just chewed up 25% of the expected return on interest payments alone and then they STILL have to collect the money in taxes to pay off the principle on the bond which may again suppress production and/or demand.

If they just print the money they can want $1.20 return for a dollar in spending but before the project $1 worth $1. After they flood the economy with worthless notes $1 is worth $0.80. Suddenly the gap between investment in return not only grew but even the money used between producers, employees and consumers is worth less.

Add to that the fact that the current crop of jackasses aren't trying to build roads, they are using the money to invest in green widgets that have little consumer demand because they under-perform and then they stipulate the widget makers must be union labor even though that raises the cost of production because the unions are major supporters...and the cost will be floated with bonds, fiat money and higher taxes because the debt to GDP ratio is just about maxed out in 2 years time.
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Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 06:56:07 AM »
Taxes are a side issue in my opinion.  I think until the losses from the bubble are recognized on balance sheets instead of hidden in accounting gimmickry we are in a death spiral.

If this was an inventory recession, I'd be inclined to agree with you more.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 07:07:08 AM »
"Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES".....well, there were no new taxes, just closed/discontinued those tax advantages/loopholes.

I got to use what the democrats called tax loopholes one damn time and they were then gone. The deal was that if Mr Bush 1 would close those loopholes, the democrats in return would balance the budget....being the lying asses they are, the democrats just spent more buying themselves votes.

Eliminating those "tax laws" that were advantageous to me and other businesses caused a slight recession that gave Clinton the chance to scream "It's the economy stupid"....he got that last part right, we just didn't realize it until later.
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Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 07:13:17 AM »
"Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES".....well, there were no new taxes, just closed/discontinued those tax advantages/loopholes.

I got to use what the democrats called tax loopholes one damn time and they were then gone. The deal was that if Mr Bush 1 would close those loopholes, the democrats in return would balance the budget....being the lying asses they are, the democrats just spent more buying themselves votes.

Eliminating those "tax laws" that were advantageous to me and other businesses caused a slight recession that gave Clinton the chance to scream "It's the economy stupid"....he got that last part right, we just didn't realize it until later.

The 1992 recession was a typical inventory recession.  It would have ended on its own without government intervention.  Taxes or spending aside.

Companies behave foolishly when the economy is going well, you hit a period where the foolishness catches up, the foolish go out of business the non-foolish take their place and entrepreneurship starts up again.

What is going on right now is the foolish are being allowed not to take their medicine.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline TheSarge

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 10:53:58 AM »
Ever since George Bush Sr broke his infamous campaign pledge in 1990, the Republicans seem to have viewed tax raises of any kind as automatically toxic.

He had no choice:

Quote
In October, after a brief government shutdown that occurred when Bush vetoed the budget Congress delivered to him, the President and Congress reached a compromise with the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990. The budget included measures to reduce the deficit by cutting government expenditures and raising taxes. Many conservative Republicans felt betrayed when Bush agreed to raise taxes, or to include "revenue increases" as he called them in his statement after signing the bill.
http://millercenter.org/academic/americanpresident/bush/essays/biography/4

He tried vetoing budget bills that included tax increases.  The Dems were happy to shut down the Government in response.  He literally had no choice.

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Look at the policies of George Bush Jr. He didn't raise taxes once. He had two massive tax cuts.

Yes and the economy was growing...tax revenues to the Fed INCREASED and unemployment was HALF of what it is now.

And tax increases on only one certain group of people...namely the ones that drive the economy is a bad idea every time it's tried...as we are seeing now.

If you're so gung-ho for tax increases...how about inplementing a tax increase on that 48% that don't pay any taxes at all.

Quote
What I find ironic is that Ronald Reagan actually raised taxes several times, in addition to cutting them. The largest was in 1982 under the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 (TEFRA), which repealed some of the provisions in the massive Kemp-Roth tax cut of 1981. This was one of the largest peacetime tax increases in history.


He raised taxes?

In 1981 he cut the top tax rate from 70 to 50%

In 1986 he dropped it to 28%

He lowered the Oil windfall profits tax and passed the tax reform act of 1986.

You know what happened in the real world with the Reagan tax CUTS?

The GDP increased...interest rates dropped and so did unemployment.  Income to the treasury GREW by 8.2% every year he was in office.

He oversaw the greatest period of sustained economic growth the country has ever experienced.

Go peddle your revisionist history elsewhere.

Quote
Eisenhower, Nixon, and Ford weren't zealous tax-cutters. What happened? Why so much hostility to tax increases of any kind, under any circumstance?


They were all three what we'd call RINO's today.  Back then they were Rockerfeller Republicans.

Quote
Curious to know.

Bullshit.
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Offline Ardent15

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 01:25:30 PM »
Quote
He tried vetoing budget bills that included tax increases.  The Dems were happy to shut down the Government in response.  He literally had no choice.

As Clinton demonstrated in 1995, he really did have a choice, and it pains me to say it but Clinton was much more astute (Or at least luckier) in picking a different path.  As it played out, the lesson from looking at the two of these situations together is that when the President rolls to Congressional stubbornness on the budget, he looks ineffectual (Hell, he IS ineffectual), but when he stands fast - even if it involves shutting down the government for a week - the heat is on Congress, not the President; then it's the President who looks like a hero, and the Congress looks like squabbling idiots.

Newt's role in the later fiasco is why I still don't trust his judgment, and the way he keeps backing ruling-class RINOs recently isn't doing anything to heal the wound.
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 02:05:32 PM »
The problem we have now is both Congress and the Prez are squabbling squandering idiots.
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 02:25:11 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Equity_and_Fiscal_Responsibility_Act_of_1982

From your link:

Quote
President of the United States Ronald Reagan agreed to the tax hikes on the promise from Congress of a $3 reduction in spending for every $1 increase in taxes. Some conservatives, led by then-Congressman Jack Kemp, claim that the promised spending reductions never occurred[3] . One week after TEFRA was signed, H.R. 6863 - the Supplemental Appropriations Act of 1982 which Ronald Reagan claimed would "bust the budget" [4] was passed by both houses of Congress over his veto[5].

So reagan believed the Dems when they said they would do what he asked if he signed the bill and then got scewed when they didn't hold up their end.

Ok...and your point?

And then on top of it they tried sneaking by even MORE spending with the supplemental bill he tried to veto it and they overrode it.

Your depth of understanding of how these things work is as shallow as the gene pool from which you crawled.

Never again in his 8 years in office were the Dems able to to pull a bait on switch on Ronaldus Magnus.  The Republicans gained a majority in the mid-terms IRRC and they never looked back and the country took off.

So your attempt to tar and feather the reputation and history of the greatest President of the 20th century has made you look like an idiot.

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Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

If it walks like a donkey and brays like a donkey and smells like a donkey - it's Cold Warrior.  - PoliCon



Palin has run a state, a town and a commercial fishing operation. Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. - Mark Steyn

Offline Ardent15

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2010, 02:31:50 PM »
From your link:

So reagan believed the Dems when they said they would do what he asked if he signed the bill and then got scewed when they didn't hold up their end.

Ok...and your point?

And then on top of it they tried sneaking by even MORE spending with the supplemental bill he tried to veto it and they overrode it.

Your depth of understanding of how these things work is as shallow as the gene pool from which you crawled.

Never again in his 8 years in office were the Dems able to to pull a bait on switch on Ronaldus Magnus.  The Republicans gained a majority in the mid-terms IRRC and they never looked back and the country took off.

So your attempt to tar and feather the reputation and history of the greatest President of the 20th century has made you look like an idiot.

EADC.


Why are you so hostile to any view contrary to your own?

You're the one making yourself look like an idiot with the ad hominem attacks.

Offline TheSarge

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2010, 02:44:58 PM »
Why are you so hostile to any view contrary to your own?

What I am hostile to n00b...is brand new trolls that show up around election time trying to re-write history....and doing so from an un-educated point of view.

What you are trying to present here is not only a bit of pot stirring...but revisionist history.

I present facts and documentable evidence to show how misguided and not in control of the facts you are and all you can come back with is some lame Wiki link in reply.

Sorry...I'll pass on the weak sauce.


Quote
You're the one making yourself look like an idiot with the ad hominem attacks.

LOL! believe that if you want.  And try to be all touchy feely sensitive to make me look like the mean old Conservative.

Quite frankly I don't care.  That wasn't an ad hominem attack.  It was aimed...direct and to the point.

Now do you have something intelligent to post and debate about here or are you just gonna continue trolling?
Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

If it walks like a donkey and brays like a donkey and smells like a donkey - it's Cold Warrior.  - PoliCon



Palin has run a state, a town and a commercial fishing operation. Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. - Mark Steyn

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 04:18:01 PM »
What I am hostile to n00b...is brand new trolls that show up around election time trying to re-write history....and doing so from an un-educated point of view.

What you are trying to present here is not only a bit of pot stirring...but revisionist history.

I present facts and documentable evidence to show how misguided and not in control of the facts you are and all you can come back with is some lame Wiki link in reply.

Sorry...I'll pass on the weak sauce.


LOL! believe that if you want.  And try to be all touchy feely sensitive to make me look like the mean old Conservative.

Quite frankly I don't care.  That wasn't an ad hominem attack.  It was aimed...direct and to the point.

Now do you have something intelligent to post and debate about here or are you just gonna continue trolling?

I don't believe your a troll when you state who you are.

I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline true_blood

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 08:12:33 PM »
we are in a death spiral.

^^What he said! As much as I hate to say it, but I think we're in some serious trouble, unfortunately. :banghead:

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 08:20:16 PM »
^^What he said! As much as I hate to say it, but I think we're in some serious trouble, unfortunately. :banghead:

We can sit here and debate the federal budget, entitlements, military force, etc.

Here is how I see things.  We spend more than we earn, we make less than we consume, and we borrow money from people who are strategic opponents in our resource quest in the world.

Our banking system is insolvent after the tech bubble and than the housing bubble.

Now we can debate tax cuts, regulation, and a whole host of other issues.

At the end of the day we need to create wealth in this country.  We have a nation rich in resources.  

Going to my fellow Allentownian Lee Iaaco and Fraternity Brother in Theta Chi

1) We can mine it

2) We can farm it

3) We can take mined and farmed goods and make them into manufactured products.

Any recovery is focused on doing those things, not on stimulating consumers through either government spending or tax cuts.

I'm willing to compromise on regulations, labor, and a whole bunch of other issues.  Without those 3 we are ****ed.

I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline thundley4

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 08:27:54 PM »
Quote
1) We can mine it

2) We can farm it

3) We can take mined and farmed goods and make them into manufactured products.

We could, if the environmentalists didn't have such a stranglehold on the Democrats.  Throw nuclear power into the mix and that greatly reduces our dependence on foreign energy.

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 08:32:39 PM »
We could, if the environmentalists didn't have such a stranglehold on the Democrats.  Throw nuclear power into the mix and that greatly reduces our dependence on foreign energy.

We have a storage facility, the gambling thing just hasn't dried up enough in Nevada yet for them to beg for the jobs it will provide.

Once they are onboard, build the plants.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline thundley4

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2010, 08:53:31 PM »
We have a storage facility, the gambling thing just hasn't dried up enough in Nevada yet for them to beg for the jobs it will provide.

Once they are onboard, build the plants.

Nevada was on board with Yucca Mountain, but Obama pulled the plug on it. 

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2010, 08:55:06 PM »
Nevada was on board with Yucca Mountain, but Obama pulled the plug on it. 

Actually Reid pulled the plug.  Obama would rather not debate this issue.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2010, 09:03:41 PM »
Stand corrected, saw Reid's stump speech and he was taking the credit.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline thundley4

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2010, 09:41:56 PM »
Stand corrected, saw Reid's stump speech and he was taking the credit.

I happened to remember when Obama did it because it seemed to be at odds with his talking about more nuclear power in the US.

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2010, 09:43:19 PM »
I happened to remember when Obama did it because it seemed to be at odds with his talking about more nuclear power in the US.

I knew the business position was precarious from meetings at the time prior to him taking office.  Frankly I see him as a product of the times more than anything else. 
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2010, 09:56:51 PM »
We can sit here and debate the federal budget, entitlements, military force, etc.

Here is how I see things.  We spend more than we earn, we make less than we consume, and we borrow money from people who are strategic opponents in our resource quest in the world.

Our banking system is insolvent after the tech bubble and than the housing bubble.

Now we can debate tax cuts, regulation, and a whole host of other issues.

At the end of the day we need to create wealth in this country.  We have a nation rich in resources.  

Going to my fellow Allentownian Lee Iaaco and Fraternity Brother in Theta Chi

1) We can mine it

2) We can farm it

3) We can take mined and farmed goods and make them into manufactured products.

Any recovery is focused on doing those things, not on stimulating consumers through either government spending or tax cuts.

I'm willing to compromise on regulations, labor, and a whole bunch of other issues.  Without those 3 we are ****ed.


The main point to tax cuts is to help create jobs...but this will only work if businesses are given real incentive to hire.  A tax break may help some, but a business owner has to be able to figure what a new employee will cost.  This is impossible right now, tax cuts are everywhere, rebates are everywhere, the healthcare law is so enormous that no one knows what all it will do...every single move Obama has made since gaining office has decreased the chances of any business being willing to hire or expand beyond what is absolutely necessary.  Just look at the moratorium in the Gulf...a couple rigs have already left, Louisiana has lost a minimum of 25,000 jobs that they can trace directly to the moratorium, and the more rigs leave, the fewer of those will ever come back.  But our president (that bows to foreign leaders and stands with Mexico against Arizona) can't see that many of the recovery problems lie in his decisions, not just in Carter's moronic Community Reinvestment Act debacle.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: "No new taxes"
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2010, 11:33:24 AM »
Actually Reid pulled the plug.  Obama would rather not debate this issue.

That's because Reid told him not to.  Never argue with the guy pulling the strings, right?

But then again, Reid took credit for the surge working, as did Obama, and they were both dead set against that as well.

And Obama wants more green power?  Nope--just wants to tax the living crap out of the sources we do use.  He has no interest in developing nuclear power.
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