Author Topic: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"  (Read 6383 times)

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Offline Chris_

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GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« on: March 22, 2008, 09:58:59 AM »
You can thank the Democrats for pushing higher CAFE standards for this...

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A four-banger in a Camaro! Blasphemy you say? Could be, but what four-pot are we talking about? In this case, the General's car czar Bob Lutz suggests that the new 2010 Camaro due next February could offer the same 2.0 liter direct-injected engine used in the Saturn Sky Redline, Pontiac Solstice GXP and the SS versions of the Chevy HHR and Cobalt.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/19/lutz-says-gm-considering-2-0-liter-turbo-for-camaro/
Quote
Mark LaNeve, GM-North America’s vice president of sales and marketing, says he wants to advertise the car’s sporty ride and handling, bold styling and (get this) its fuel economy when Chevrolet launches the car next year. When equipped with a V-6 engine, the car should get about 28 miles per gallon on the highway, La Neve says. “We won’t position it as a muscle car,” he says. “The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6.”

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2008/03/just_dont_call.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/22/mark-laneve-camaro-wont-be-positioned-as-a-muscle-car/

Jalopnik asked "Would you buy a v6 muscle car?"

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As hard as it is for some to believe, not everyone needs or wants eight cylinders. In fact, automakers have started to flock to V6's to power performance vehicles. The new Hyundai Genesis Coupe has a 300HP V6, as does the concept Suzuki Kizashi 3. A well-built V6 can offer similar power, lower weight and better fuel economy than a V8. But a muscle car is a muscle car because of its V8 muscle, right?

Maybe not. The new V6-powered Dodge Challenger gets 250 horsepower, which is 20 more horsepower than the V8 standard on the original Challenger, while getting 25 mpg. The latest Shelby Terlingua Racing Stangs have historic muscle car DNA and feature a V6. So does the Shelby CS6. Given rising fuel costs, overall savings and the improvement of V6's would you buy a V6 muscle car?
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 10:24:59 AM »
This ain't the first time they've tried this--and GM wonders why they're losing money...

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/chevrolet-camaro/chevrolet-camaro-history-3.shtml

Comments: The third generation of Camaros debuted in 1982 as truly all new designs. They were the first Camaros built without front subframes or leaf-spring suspensions. The front end was now held up by MacPherson Struts and the rear used a long torque arm and coil springs. Engine choices were all new for 1982. At the bottom of the performance scale, buyers could order a Camaro with a version of GM's "Iron Duke" 2.5 liter four cylinder engine rated at a pathetic 90 bhp. Engine options included a 2.8 liter V6 rated at 112 bhp (which was the base engine in the Berlinetta), or a four-barrel carbureted 5.0 liter (305 cid) small block V8 rated at 145bhp (which was the base engine in the Z28). Optional in the Z28 was a "Cross-Fire Injection" (Throttle Body-Injected) version of the 5.0 V8 which was rated at 165bhp. The carbureted 5.7 could be mated to a manual or automatic transmission, but the Cross Fire 5.7 was available with an automatic only. A 350 T-Top Camaro once again paced the Indianapolis 500 and the silver and blue replica cars are some of the most attractive of the 1982 models. It is sad to note, however, that the real pace car used a highly modified 350 V8 that wasn't available to the public.

Looks like even the Vette had it's problems.  Granted, it was NEVER a V-6, but the late 70's models were pathetic dogs.

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/chevrolet-corvette/chevrolet-corvette-history-3.shtml

A Vette with 175 bhp?  And a 350 engine at that?  Hell, even the Nova I drove in high school had more than that.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 10:27:53 AM »
Those smog-restricted engines were terrible.  I had an '81 350 small block that wheezed it way to an early grave.
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Offline Uhhuh35

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 10:34:33 AM »
V-6's are fine for light vehicles. But a heavy, full size muscle car needs a V-8. A heavy car with a V-6 will get generally poor fuel mileage, have low performance and chew up transmissions as well.
And as pointed out in a previous post, the V-6 engine will wear out quicker in that car.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 10:36:52 AM »
The posts at Jalopnik are interesting.  Most of them prefer a straight-6 to a V6.  Never driven one, but I hear they're damn near bulletproof. 
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Offline Chris_

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 12:02:14 PM »
Okay, some REAL sports car news:
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This video shows some of our favs on the NASCAR circuit (Kurt Busch, Kasey Kahne and Bobby Labonte) taking a peek at the Dodge Challenger concept along with some footage from the road as they drive a Challenger dressed as a Charger in some pretty decent driving action. Enjoy…

[youtube=425,350]VWXCGmGarxw[/youtube]

Oooh, nice. :)
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2008, 03:27:56 PM »

Offline Uhhuh35

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 04:51:12 PM »
The posts at Jalopnik are interesting.  Most of them prefer a straight-6 to a V6.  Never driven one, but I hear they're damn near bulletproof. 

My wife's 67 Barracuda had a slant 6 in it. I drove it once, about 150 miles to our new home. It was running on only 5 cylinders but I could still pass almost anybody!
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Offline Karys

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2008, 05:10:16 PM »
The posts at Jalopnik are interesting.  Most of them prefer a straight-6 to a V6.  Never driven one, but I hear they're damn near bulletproof. 

I would agree with that.  I used to have a '96 Ford F150 with a 4.9L straight six.  Although it wouldn't blow the doors off of many other vehicles with only 210hp, that engine would run forever.  Too bad the rest of the truck was a lemon.

Offline Chris_

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2008, 05:14:28 PM »
The posts at Jalopnik are interesting.  Most of them prefer a straight-6 to a V6.  Never driven one, but I hear they're damn near bulletproof. 

I would agree with that.  I used to have a '96 Ford F150 with a 4.9L straight six.  Although it wouldn't blow the doors off of many other vehicles with only 210hp, that engine would run forever.  Too bad the rest of the truck was a lemon.

Needs more turbo.   :hyper:
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Offline RightCoast

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 06:20:46 PM »
Recent history is loaded with 4 & 6 cyl "muscle cars" none of them were very successful.  Put 12 turbos on a 4 cyl and all you have is a faster 4 cyl, put a v-8 in a car and you have an icon.  Unfortunately the EPA's corporate average MPG rules are going to be the death knell of cars like the 300 & charger.  And might make us say goodbye to cars that are just now making a long awaited return.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 10:30:32 PM »
Shrugs, I'll be honest.  The new Camaro looks tight, and I'd far prefer cheap insurance and great fuel economy for a daily driver.  As long as it wasn't dangerously or annoyingly underpowered. 

It looks too much like the Charger... I think I would rather have the Dodge.  And the dashboard/interior is super fugly.
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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2008, 06:19:32 PM »
Shrugs, I'll be honest.  The new Camaro looks tight, and I'd far prefer cheap insurance and great fuel economy for a daily driver.  As long as it wasn't dangerously or annoyingly underpowered. 



It looks too much like the Charger... I think I would rather have the Dodge.  And the dashboard/interior is super fugly.



It is almost like they use the ugly-est possible design thinking it will win points seem "cool."   Dumb.
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Offline Odin's Hand

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2008, 08:46:08 PM »
Bah! I'd rather have the Challenger with a 392 Hemi than that chumpy engine. GM disappoints again.
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2008, 11:32:42 PM »

I think they are trying to create a "throwback effect" to the late 60's series camaros



it seems to have worked for ford with the throwback mustang, right? :whatever:

Offline Miss Mia

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2008, 12:10:50 AM »
Bah! I'd rather have the Challenger with a 392 Hemi than that chumpy engine. GM disappoints again.

Agreed! 
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Offline Randy

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2008, 02:21:05 PM »
GM disappoints again.


For almost 40 years in a row now.

Offline DarkHalo

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2008, 09:25:08 AM »
The new Caddie CTS model "CTS4" has a V6 that pumps out 300+ ponies, is AWD and handles like a BMW. I have been a muscle car guy all my life and I think the new GM V6's are nothing to sneeze at. The 4 banger they are considering for use in the new Camaro is also turbo charged and puts out gobs of horse power. Theres 2 car forums I visit regularly if you want the latest on Camaro and GM info.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/index.php

Both are great sites and the Camaro 5 forum has tons of pics and even a few vids of the new Camaro. I read an interview with Bob Lutz recently and he said that people who see cars as an "appliance" are defaulting to Toyota and that GM was trying to position itself to provide cars to people that see them as more than a 'toaster'.

Back in the 80's Buick tried to remake itself to appeal to a younger demographic with their T-Type Regals, Grand Nationals and the Reatta. They got scared and cancelled all their fun cars and meekly went back to selling cars to the 50+ crowd. But then Cadillac was successful in reinvinting itself in the late 90's and early 00's. The Cadillac CTS, CTS-V and CTS4 have been wildly successful and have even gained a foothold in europe and asia. Heres an excellent Top Gear review of the Corvette V8 powered CTS-V. They run it to 163 MPH (!!!)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9E1ZmWIXaAE

GM had to decide if they were going to survive or not and I think they chose survival. The new engines are amazing feats of technology and if they can actually design a visually and viscerally exciting car they can gain back market share.

Granted I am a life long GM guy, my first car was a Chevy LUV, my last car was a Corvette, before the 'vette I had a Blazer and restored a '72 El Camino, my current car is a Buick Reatta and my next will be a Cadillac CTS, but I think General Motors has a chance as long as they dont lose their nerve, again.

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Offline RightCoast

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2008, 10:43:45 AM »
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T-Type Regals, Grand Nationals and the Reatta.


I'll take a GNX please!

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Offline DarkHalo

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2008, 09:09:30 PM »
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T-Type Regals, Grand Nationals and the Reatta.


I'll take a GNX please!


When I was street racing my El Camino I would occasionally come up against a GN but never had the honor of running against a GNX. They were the first hi-tech muscle car and the only real muscle car of the '80's.
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Offline RightCoast

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2008, 07:34:09 PM »
Quote
T-Type Regals, Grand Nationals and the Reatta.


I'll take a GNX please!


When I was street racing my El Camino I would occasionally come up against a GN but never had the honor of running against a GNX. They were the first hi-tech muscle car and the only real muscle car of the '80's.
  Too bad buick changed focus in '88 -didn't help that they built a car faster the the '87 vette GM doesn't like that.

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Offline DarkHalo

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2008, 12:06:27 AM »
Quote
T-Type Regals, Grand Nationals and the Reatta.


I'll take a GNX please!


When I was street racing my El Camino I would occasionally come up against a GN but never had the honor of running against a GNX. They were the first hi-tech muscle car and the only real muscle car of the '80's.
  Too bad buick changed focus in '88 -didn't help that they built a car faster the the '87 vette GM doesn't like that.



An '87 vette would do 150 easy enough. Im not sure the GN would. Plus very few other cars handled anywhere near as good as the vettes did after '84. The Syclone of that same era would out launch a vette too and it had the same engine as the GN, but the vette killed the Syclone on topend.

But the corvette hasnt been really considered a 'muscle car' since the '60's. They are a legit world class sports car. Actually they are the only American made sports car. But you are quite correct about GM and especially Buicks focus changing in the late 80's. The 88 & 89 Reatta had touch screens in the dash that controleld EVERYTHING in the car. They thought that was too techie for their usual demographic and dialed it back in '90 to a ton of regular switches in the dash. Sux0rs as my Reatta is a '90.  :thatsright:
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Offline RightCoast

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2008, 06:53:26 PM »
Stock 0-60/ 1/4 Mile times

1987 Buick Regal GNX 4.7/ 13.5
1986 Corvette 5.8/ 14.4
1990 Corvette 5.7/ 14.3
1990 Corvette ZR-1 4.4/ 12.8
2001 Corvette Z06 4.6/ 13.0

Sure the vette had the GNX by about 25mph on top speed but that number pales by the fact that the GNX was still the better straight track car up into the early '90s.  And notice the vaunted Z06 only has the GNX by a tick.

And yes the Buick didn't like to turn nearly as much as a vette does.

Also take this into account:

1992 Dodge Viper 4.8/ 13.1
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Offline DarkHalo

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2008, 12:50:18 AM »
Stock 0-60/ 1/4 Mile times

1987 Buick Regal GNX 4.7/ 13.5
1986 Corvette 5.8/ 14.4
1990 Corvette 5.7/ 14.3
1990 Corvette ZR-1 4.4/ 12.8
2001 Corvette Z06 4.6/ 13.0

Sure the vette had the GNX by about 25mph on top speed but that number pales by the fact that the GNX was still the better straight track car up into the early '90s.  And notice the vaunted Z06 only has the GNX by a tick.

And yes the Buick didn't like to turn nearly as much as a vette does.

Also take this into account:

1992 Dodge Viper 4.8/ 13.1


Ever done any high speed runs thru the mountains? All it takes is one time to see which is a true "sports car". Theres more to "performance" than going fast in a straight line.  Go talk to the guys at CorvetteForum.com.

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Offline RightCoast

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Re: GM: "Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car"
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2008, 07:19:52 PM »
Stock 0-60/ 1/4 Mile times

1987 Buick Regal GNX 4.7/ 13.5
1986 Corvette 5.8/ 14.4
1990 Corvette 5.7/ 14.3
1990 Corvette ZR-1 4.4/ 12.8
2001 Corvette Z06 4.6/ 13.0

Sure the vette had the GNX by about 25mph on top speed but that number pales by the fact that the GNX was still the better straight track car up into the early '90s.  And notice the vaunted Z06 only has the GNX by a tick.

And yes the Buick didn't like to turn nearly as much as a vette does.

Also take this into account:

1992 Dodge Viper 4.8/ 13.1


Ever done any high speed runs thru the mountains? All it takes is one time to see which is a true "sports car". Theres more to "performance" than going fast in a straight line.  Go talk to the guys at CorvetteForum.com.



I clearly gave the nod the the straight line nature of the GNX, but te numbers don't lie.  And I have "raced" more straight flat desert highways than twisty mountain paths.

The GNX beat virtually every car built in '87 save the Lamborgini Countach.  Corvette wishes that it could say that, but it can not.  For the same price as a Vette about 547 people drove away with a peice of history.


By the way how many 1987 Corvettes are selling today for $85,000?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=330219936697


nine eleven is a car
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September 11, 2001 was an attack
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