Author Topic: A question about Radio Weirdness.  (Read 5300 times)

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Offline miskie

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A question about Radio Weirdness.
« on: May 15, 2010, 06:53:54 PM »
As many of you know, I deliver mail for a living, and while Im doing so, I listen to the radio quite a bit, usually 969 Boston Talks - where I get my right wing hate programming from..

Anyway..

There is a stretch of road that contains pretty much nothing but a cattle farm on one side, and a slaughterhouse on the other. Along this stretch I frequently lose the Boston Station ( about 60 miles north of me) and pick up one of three others..  

96.9 - Progressive Radio For Long Island
96.9 - The Eagle, Jacksonville Fl.
96.9 - Key-Z fm, Florida Keys.

I can see crosstalk from Long Island - but Florida ? - I live in Massachusetts. This is an FM station - not AM or SW. and I'm using a factory radio installed in a 2001 Pontiac Montana. Not an HD Radio, Satellite radio or anything special. Anyway, I was wondering what on earth could cause such a distortion of a broadcast area, to a point that is maybe only a few hundred yards long.. no more than half a mile - where this is likely to occur.

-edit: spelling
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 06:58:00 PM by miskie »

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2010, 07:01:27 PM »
Now that is weird.

It couldn't be someone with a micro transmitter messing around with you could it?

lol

Offline miskie

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2010, 07:22:44 PM »
not likely - The problem isn't limited to 96.9 either - I listen to FrankFM 101.1 (http://www.frankcapecod.com/  - a formatless radio station) and in the same location I pick up Rock 101 out of Manchester, New Hampshire. So - the weirdness exists on more than one station, and is capable of moving north to south, not just south to north. - although Manchester is a plausible distance..

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2010, 07:27:20 PM »
not likely - The problem isn't limited to 96.9 either - I listen to FrankFM 101.1 (http://www.frankcapecod.com/  - a formatless radio station) and in the same location I pick up Rock 101 out of Manchester, New Hampshire. So - the weirdness exists on more than one station, and is capable of moving north to south, not just south to north. - although Manchester is a plausible distance..

Maybe you have a super sensitive reciever! Just use it for good!

Offline Chris_

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2010, 07:46:19 PM »
As many of you know, I deliver mail for a living, and while Im doing so, I listen to the radio quite a bit, usually 969 Boston Talks - where I get my right wing hate programming from..

Anyway..

There is a stretch of road that contains pretty much nothing but a cattle farm on one side, and a slaughterhouse on the other. Along this stretch I frequently lose the Boston Station ( about 60 miles north of me) and pick up one of three others..  

96.9 - Progressive Radio For Long Island
96.9 - The Eagle, Jacksonville Fl.
96.9 - Key-Z fm, Florida Keys.

I can see crosstalk from Long Island - but Florida ? - I live in Massachusetts. This is an FM station - not AM or SW. and I'm using a factory radio installed in a 2001 Pontiac Montana. Not an HD Radio, Satellite radio or anything special. Anyway, I was wondering what on earth could cause such a distortion of a broadcast area, to a point that is maybe only a few hundred yards long.. no more than half a mile - where this is likely to occur.

-edit: spelling

The LI station is likely a convergence event.......FM radio is "line of sight" propagation, and your radio is designed to "capture" the strongest station on that frequency........therefore because of obstacles the Boston station is momentarily lost, the tuner will lock on the next available signal.

The Florida stations that you are receiving is likely due to a propagation event called "tropospheric ducting" which allows high frequency radio signals to be "ducted" for long distances due to atmospheric conditions......ducting is common along coastlines, as the sea creates conditions that are ideal for it.

Here in the midwest, we typically only see it in summer, and it (for those of you old enough to remember) would be responsible, during the days when we depended on antennas for TV, occasionally receiving a TV station from hundreds of miles away when these conditions occur.

doc
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Offline miskie

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2010, 09:03:33 PM »
The LI station is likely a convergence event.......FM radio is "line of sight" propagation, and your radio is designed to "capture" the strongest station on that frequency........therefore because of obstacles the Boston station is momentarily lost, the tuner will lock on the next available signal.

The Florida stations that you are receiving is likely due to a propagation event called "tropospheric ducting" which allows high frequency radio signals to be "ducted" for long distances due to atmospheric conditions......ducting is common along coastlines, as the sea creates conditions that are ideal for it.

Here in the midwest, we typically only see it in summer, and it (for those of you old enough to remember) would be responsible, during the days when we depended on antennas for TV, occasionally receiving a TV station from hundreds of miles away when these conditions occur.

doc

This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for ! Thanks.

Offline Chris_

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 09:22:49 PM »
I used to be able to pick up a Cincinnati station in Nashville, but only at night.  Too bad it was Jerry Springer.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 10:46:03 PM »
I used to be able to pick up a Cincinnati station in Nashville, but only at night.  Too bad it was Jerry Springer.

If it was an AM station.....that is totally different.  Much lower frequency, and as such will actually "bounce" off of the "E" layer of the troposphere, and continue to bounce around the planet.......these conditions are enhanced at night, as the sun no longer ionizes the upper atmospheric levels.

Up until the advent of satellite communications, virtually all intercontental radio communications were in the frequency range of .5 to 30 mHz, which are succeptable to this type of propagation.  Above those frequencies, dependable long-range radio communications are unlikely.

doc
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 10:26:40 AM »
Quote
The Florida stations that you are receiving is likely due to a propagation event called "tropospheric ducting" which allows high frequency radio signals to be "ducted" for long distances due to atmospheric conditions......ducting is common along coastlines, as the sea creates conditions that are ideal for it.


Doc, is that what we in CB referred to as "skip"?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 11:35:58 AM »

Doc, is that what we in CB referred to as "skip"?

No...."the "skip" phenomenon is the radio signal bouncing off of ionized layers in the atmosphere, and is confined to frequencies that are typically below 30 MHz (the CB band is around 27 MHz if I recall).  Transmissions above 30 MHz are not reflected, and continue to pass through the atmosphere into space, under normal conditions (there are some exceptions).  The level of atmospheric ionization varies with the level of sunspot activity, and exists in 11-year cycles......we are coming out of a solar "minimum" right noiw, so "skip" propagation is limited to frequencies much lower than 30 MHz, the higher the level of sunspot activity, the greater the critical atmospheric ionization, and the higher the frequency radio signals that will "skip".  This is why CB'ers will sometimes have "skip" and sometimes not, depending on the level of sunspot activity.

"Tropospheric Ducting" is caused by the collision of a warm humid air mass with a cold humid air mass, which sometimes forms a "tube or duct" where radio signals that are above the frequency that can be reflected off the ionosphere can travel for sometimes great distances.  The principle is nature creating a form of "waveguide" which is the mechanical method by which radio signals all the way up into the microwave spectrum are transmitted to antennas.  The best examples of waveguide use is in radar installations, and microwave ovens.  It is essentially a rectangular resonant hollow tube through which the radio energy passes.

The presence of high concentrations of water droplets in humid air masses creates a "surface", which if formed into a tube by convergence of warm and cold air masses, simulates a "pipe" through which the VHF and UHF radio signals can travel, instead of escaping into space as they would normally do.

The physics of RF propagation is a rather complex science, and can be sometimes hard to explain, and conceptualize.......I hope I've answered your question.......

doc
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Offline thundley4

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 11:46:14 AM »
I remember when I lived in Norfolk, VA, I could sometimes pick up Chicago's two big AM stations, WLS 890, and WGN 720.

Offline Chris_

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 11:56:22 AM »
I remember when I lived in Norfolk, VA, I could sometimes pick up Chicago's two big AM stations, WLS 890, and WGN 720.

This is an example of "skip", as the AM band is  0.55 to 1.7 MHz, and very susceptible to bouncing off of the ionosphere, particularly at night........and the two stations that you mentioned hold what the FCC refers to as "Clear Channel" licenses, allowing them to transmit at very high power levels at night (50,000 watts typically), because the FCC will allow no other station to operate on that frequency in the US.

Normal AM stations are licensed to run at higher power levels during the daytime, when "skip" propagation is limited, but are required to reduce their output power at sunset (called the "Sunset Rule") to only a few watts, to avoid interfering with other stations operating on the same frequency in other areas.

doc
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2010, 10:40:17 AM »
Quote
I hope I've answered your question.......


Yup, the answer was..no.






 :tongue:
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Offline Mike220

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 11:15:59 AM »
Glad I'm not the only one this happens to. When I was driving out east for spring break, I picked up my normal Dallas based hate radio (820 WBAP) in Virginia at night...
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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2010, 06:03:23 AM »
Pick up a Philly station all the time here in coastal NC, the first time it happened the traffic report confused the hell out of me.
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Offline Thor

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 12:15:26 AM »
At night, the D & E layers combine to make the F layer. AM radio has always had the better reception at night.

When I was in Desert Shield, I used to call back to the states on the HF radio in the MH-53E. I was pushing 125 watts AM and 400 watts SSB

When I was in Norfolk, back during the CB craze, I used to shoot skip out to California. "Skip" is typically caused by a heavy sunspot/ solar flare cycle, if I recall.
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Offline Randy

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2010, 08:39:59 PM »

When I was in Norfolk, back during the CB craze, I used to shoot skip out to California. "Skip" is typically caused by a heavy sunspot/ solar flare cycle, if I recall.

Yep and its working it way up into another cycle.
I moved to Texas from RI back in early 1978. CB was big then and we were all wrapped up in it, had been before it really got going. I had the license and everything.
 
One of the first things I did when I got to Texas was set up my base station. I listened to the skip rolling in the mornings while I puttered around getting settled in my apartment. About the second or third morning I clearly heard it roll up the east coast and I noted the time it was in the Long Island/Cape Cod areas. The next day I did the same and did that for about a week. When I was sure of the timing I got on at the right time, settled in with the headphones on and started hollering my ass off in the crowds, after about 5 minutes I heard a voice I knew!

I started doing my thing trying to get his attention. Someone else heard me and told him someone was yelling for him. He brought his beam antenna around my way and locked me in,  we had a great conversation for a few. My Mom got on in the middle of it and Charlie relayed for us for a bit more. As the roll hit dead on us I was able to talk directly to her for a few minutes. Then as it all rolled out we all faded apart. We all got to swap QSL{QDX?} cards.  :-)

It was a pretty cool experience and we never did manage to pull it off again. The skip was changing about 11-12 minutes later each day and I had to get a job and work for a living so I didn't have time to monitor it like I had that first week.

Offline Zeus

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Re: A question about Radio Weirdness.
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2010, 08:48:11 PM »
I remember when I lived in Norfolk, VA, I could sometimes pick up Chicago's two big AM stations, WLS 890, and WGN 720.


In NE North Dakota in the summertime used to pick up WLS at night time.
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