Author Topic: The Crisis in American Christendom  (Read 21013 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2010, 08:38:10 PM »
It can beg all it wants.  The fact is that "knowledge" is worthless without discernment.   Absolute belief in lies currently runs many of our churches, our politicians, and our voters.  Only TRUTH is worth studying and KNOWING.

In point of fact, you make that point yourself in talking about your former churches.

Yes or No, Mrs Smith, if you expect an answer, otherwise I will assume that you are posting for your own self-agrandizment....

doc
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Offline debk

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2010, 08:40:14 PM »
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125165061&ps=cprs

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124572693&ps=rs

Someone that is grounded in the true foundations of Christianity (a fairly rare person these days) could read either of these books are come away with knowledge useful for poking holes in the untrue beliefs of others.  Someone ungrounded will read books like this and start to believe them.  A clever lie is not always a good thing to study unless you have very good discernment.  Why fill your head with lies?


Aren't you confusing what you consider a "lie" with what is really an "opinion" or an "interpretation"?

How many times as the Bible been, for lack of a better word....been re-interpreted? modernized to everyday common language so that people understand it better than the ancient words?

From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I don't think one can read one book regarding Christianity and say it is the truth, yet say another book is a lie, just because it doesn't say what one thinks should be the truth. It's still the writer's opinion and interpretation.




 

 
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2010, 08:44:42 PM »

Aren't you confusing what you consider a "lie" with what is really an "opinion" or an "interpretation"?

How many times as the Bible been, for lack of a better word....been re-interpreted? modernized to everyday common language so that people understand it better than the ancient words?

From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I don't think one can read one book regarding Christianity and say it is the truth, yet say another book is a lie, just because it doesn't say what one thinks should be the truth. It's still the writer's opinion and interpretation.




 

 


My turn.... 

 :hi5:

doc

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2010, 09:05:29 PM »
Yes or No, Mrs Smith, if you expect an answer, otherwise I will assume that you are posting for your own self-agrandizment....

doc
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Offline Doc

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2010, 09:07:03 PM »
OK....as hard as this is to read, I'll take a stab, since the poster didn't hang around for a discussion......

I am not sure what you mean by the phrase communion with the roots of Christ's teachings.  If you mean by that that salvation is based upon our acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ through repentant faith, and the person of Christ being that is is God and man in one person; and that the work of Christ is that he died on the cross for our sins, then I agree.  The Bible is clear that faith is in a person, the person of Christ; and the salvation comes through is death on the cross.

On this we agree....I have a very personal relationship with Christ.........I believe in his life, mission, death and resurrection, and the redemption that that brings to me personally......without a "church"

Quote
I must take exception with this point.  According to Matthew 28:19-20 the primary mission of the Church is the spreading of the Gospel(v.19).  But the spiritual health of the Church is a vital mission of the Church because after Jesus said to baptist them he said  to teach them to observe all things.  So I say the primary mission of the church is to first get people saved, the disciple them.

The fact that "churches" are not fulfilling that mission, is the entire reason for my OP, my position, ergo the discussion......My evaluation of the "health of the church"....is poor.....

Quote
I must take exception with this point.  According to Matthew 28:19-20 the primary mission of the Church is the spreading of the Gospel(v.19).  But the spiritual health of the Church is a vital mission of the Church because after Jesus said to baptist them he said  to teach them to observe all things.  So I say the primary mission of the church is to first get people saved, the disciple them.I would type more but every time I type something it hides below the Post reply box and I have to keep scrolling down to see what I have typed.  So I will simply stop with this

That is all well and good.....however......I restate that my experience is that the churches are failing miserably to fulfill that mission....you can take exception all you want, but that does not alter my experiences with churches.....perhaps not YOUR church, but I've never been there, and therefore have no opinion......on churches in general, as a pastor, I would suggest....."Physician, heal thyself......"  As spiritual leader of your flock, I would assume that you would consider it important that newcomers do not leave your church with the impression that I have received from the vast majority of others that I have attended......

doc
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 11:29:46 AM by TVDOC »

Offline USA4ME

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2010, 09:07:18 PM »
From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I would agree that it's a matter of opinion if the above were true.  However if the above were true, if I did not believe the scriptures were directly revealed from God and were a 100% reflection of exactly what he spoke through inspired men, if the Bible was a "compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down," then I wouldn't believe the Bible at all.  If I can't trust all of it, then I can't truly trust any of it.

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Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2010, 09:10:04 PM »
If you don't get the point, don't bother to answer. 

I get the point, but I asked you a question in good faith, and so far you have refused to answer......until you do, it is pointless for me to continue.....

doc
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2010, 09:12:49 PM »
The fact that "churches" are not fulfilling that mission, is the entire reason for my OP, my position, ergo the discussion......My evaluation of the "health of the church"....is poor.....

If you are finding that to be the case, then the fault lies with the people not doing what God would have them to do as a collection of the "called out."  It is still possible, and I would say is still practiced, that there are Christians who use "the church" as God intented, in which case the health of that church is good.

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2010, 09:13:52 PM »

Aren't you confusing what you consider a "lie" with what is really an "opinion" or an "interpretation"?
No.

How many times as the Bible been, for lack of a better word....been re-interpreted? modernized to everyday common language so that people understand it better than the ancient words?
Updating to modern language is one thing.  Lying is another.  Did you read the articles on NPR?  Did you understand the very clever half-truths in them...clever enough to take in most people today.  Something is either true or false.  The best lies have some truth scattered throughout.  Unless a person knows the truth, it's very easy to believe the lies.  Why do you think so many in this country have a negative attitude toward Christianity?  It's due to lack of knowledge, partial truth, and outright lies.

From the very beginning, the Bible was a compilation of stories that were told from one generation to the next until the very first time it was written down. How much of it changed from what really may have happened or what the storyteller wanted to say happened to fit the circumstance, the story being told?

I don't think one can read one book regarding Christianity and say it is the truth, yet say another book is a lie, just because it doesn't say what one thinks should be the truth. It's still the writer's opinion and interpretation.




 

 

In the beginning, the first books were given to Moses.  Anyone who doubts this can read Genesis 1, no human would make up a story that implausible and try to pass it off as history...especially one raised to worship the sun as a god.  Like a human would imagine that LIGHT came before the light source.  After that, history was added, prophesy was added...but "stories" were NOT added.

I can absolutely say that the books I referenced on NPR are largely untrue, without any doubt at all.  I can also say that the books written by CS Lewis are largely true, again without doubt.  I can say this because I took the time to study the TRUTH before I looked for lies.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2010, 09:15:01 PM »
I get the point, but I asked you a question in good faith, and so far you have refused to answer......until you do, it is pointless for me to continue.....

doc
In that case, the answer is no.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2010, 09:17:21 PM »
If you are finding that to be the case, then the fault lies with the people not doing what God would have them to do as a collection of the "called out."  It is still possible, and I would say is still practiced, that there are Christians who use "the church" as God intented, in which case the health of that church is good.

.

Precisely.....hence I continue my quest.....

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2010, 09:19:28 PM »
In that case, the answer is no.

Excellent.....we've finished the "foreplay"....and I've now completed my evaluation of your position in Christianity......referring to my OP.....you're in the "9" category.....

doc
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2010, 09:26:00 PM »
Excellent.....we've finished the "foreplay"....and I've now completed my evaluation of your position in Christianity......referring to my OP.....you're in the "9" category.....

doc
Oh, a label.  How cute!   :-) :-) :whatever:

Of course, it still remains that stuffing your head full of lies is stupid...
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Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2010, 09:51:39 PM »
Oh, a label.  How cute!   :-) :-) :whatever:

Of course, it still remains that stuffing your head full of lies is stupid...

As you have heard before from me.....you are certainly entitled to your opinions, regardless of how presumptuous (or blatantly wrong) they may be......

But that IS the characteristic of a "9".....as you quoted back to me (since it must have struck a nerve).

A theological psychologist friend of mine defined my "09" designation as "A Christian that is so insecure in their faith that they can't tolerate the existence of anything, or anyone that would challenge their fundamental beliefs.....a person so "hidebound" (there's that word again) in Biblical minutia that they fail to see the true scope of Christianity, and are content to exist in a small, protected, safe theological cocoon, where they align themselves with others who are similarly spiritually stunted"........his words, not mine.....Credit to Dr. Malcome Weston, PhD, DD, Baylor University, circa 2008)



However, "if the shoe fits....."

doc
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Offline debk

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2010, 10:01:54 PM »
No.
 Updating to modern language is one thing.  Lying is another.  Did you read the articles on NPR?  Did you understand the very clever half-truths in them...clever enough to take in most people today.  Something is either true or false.  The best lies have some truth scattered throughout.  Unless a person knows the truth, it's very easy to believe the lies.  Why do you think so many in this country have a negative attitude toward Christianity?  It's due to lack of knowledge, partial truth, and outright lies.

I read one of the articles....not both.

Why do I think so many in this country have a negative attitude toward Christianity? Because they can. It's allowed. Whether you like it or not....it is allowed. I'm a Catholic living in the Southern Baptist Bible Belt. Want to know how many times a righteous Christian has called me a heathen? or told me I'm not a Christian because I'm a Catholic?


In the beginning, the first books were given to Moses.  Anyone who doubts this can read Genesis 1, no human would make up a story that implausible and try to pass it off as history...especially one raised to worship the sun as a god.  Like a human would imagine that LIGHT came before the light source.  After that, history was added, prophesy was added...but "stories" were NOT added.

Ok...I used the wrong word using "stories"....history and prophesy are better choices. Still the Word was passed from one generation to another....hundreds of years before it was ever written down in what was to become The Bible. Do you really believe there was never any interpretation of a particular situation or retelling of the circumstances? This history was verbally related by human beings....you cannot truly believe that there was never any interpretation done by the storyteller.

I can absolutely say that the books I referenced on NPR are largely untrue, without any doubt at all.  I can also say that the books written by CS Lewis are largely true, again without doubt.  I can say this because I took the time to study the TRUTH before I looked for lies.


Just for the record....there are 8 versions of the Bible. And thousands of translations into English.

I grew up with the King James Version, which is considered The Holy Bible, in the Episcopal Church.

The Roman Catholic Church uses the Latin Vugate, which is considered to be the most accurate version of The Scriptures.

While all 8 versions are similar, they are not identical.

Does that make one better than the other?

Is version synomous with opinion or fact or interpretation?

Is your TRUTH the same as every Christians? or is your TRUTH what you have learned based on how you interpreted the version?

I'm not trying to be difficult.

I'm just attempting to tell you that what you see as the TRUTH and nothing but, is not necessarily the same view that someone else may have.

Part of what makes each of us an individual...is that we each go through life as an individual....with different experiences that shape us and our way of thinking, viewing the world and all parts of it.

No two people walk the exact same path in this world. While we may have situations that are eerily similar, they are not exact.

Religion is different for each individual. Just as each individual has a personal relationship with God that is not the same as another's. You and your very closest person, may have the same views regarding God and your church, religion, etc. But each of you will have a different relationship with God...simply because of your individuality.

I can tell you that I have had 2 very up close and personal encounters with God. I know that He exists because he spoke to me. Can I tell you what He looked like? Nope. But I can tell you what I felt when He held me. Was there a "white light" that some people have seen? Nope. But there was such a presence, that there was nothing else there but me and Him and my hospital bed. Was it drugs and hallucination? Maybe some people think so....but it doesn't matter ....because I know.

It's all about faith. And how each individual wishes to believe in it and practice that faith.....and most importantly it is between the individual person and God what is TRUE, A LIE, AN INTERPRETATION, AN OPINION.

Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2010, 10:03:02 PM »
As you have heard before from me.....you are certainly entitled to your opinions, regardless of how presumptuous (or blatantly wrong) they may be......

But that IS the characteristic of a "9".....as you quoted back to me (since it must have struck a nerve).

A theological psychologist friend of mine defined my "09" designation as "A Christian that is so insecure in their faith that they can't tolerate the existence of anything, or anyone that would challenge their fundamental beliefs.....a person so "hidebound" (there's that word again) in Biblical minutia that they fail to see the true scope of Christianity, and are content to exist in a small, protected, safe theological cocoon, where they align themselves with others who are similarly spiritually stunted"........his words, not mine.....Credit to Dr. Malcome Weston, PhD, DD, Baylor University, circa 2008)



However, "if the shoe fits....."

doc
A Christian that has studied the truth, learned it well enough to spot lies, and isn't afraid to call them lies.  I'd take that as a complement.   :-)  I have worked to gain real knowledge, not fluff.



Let me put it to you this way...one day, you're browsing a bookstore and you run across a book that is a biography of someone with the same name as your wife.  You pick it up out of curiousity, and discover it IS about your wife.  WOW!  So you buy it and begin to read...only to discover that most of the book is fiction, with some facts carefully scattered about to make it look good.  Now...do you offer that book to people that want to know your wife better?  After all, it's knowledge, right?  Or do you tell everyone that the book is full of lies...and sue the author?   :evillaugh: :evillaugh:
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Offline Doc

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2010, 10:08:36 PM »
Let me put it to you this way...one day, you're browsing a bookstore and you run across a book that is a biography of someone with the same name as your wife.  You pick it up out of curiousity, and discover it IS about your wife.  WOW!  So you buy it and begin to read...only to discover that most of the book is fiction, with some facts carefully scattered about to make it look good.  Now...do you offer that book to people that want to know your wife better?  After all, it's knowledge, right?  Or do you tell everyone that the book is full of lies...and sue the author?   :evillaugh: :evillaugh:

My wife is nearly blind, so she couldn't read it.....but she'd get a hell of a kick out of the idea that someone went to all that trouble...... :-)

doc

On Edit:  Knowing her sense of humor, she would likely enjoy passing it around.......particularly if her "fictional" life is more exciting than her real on has been......but she is a redhead.....they are all crazy anyway......
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 10:13:58 PM by TVDOC »

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2010, 10:17:14 PM »

Just for the record....there are 8 versions of the Bible. And thousands of translations into English.

I grew up with the King James Version, which is considered The Holy Bible, in the Episcopal Church.

The Roman Catholic Church uses the Latin Vugate, which is considered to be the most accurate version of The Scriptures.

While all 8 versions are similar, they are not identical.

Does that make one better than the other?

Is version synomous with opinion or fact or interpretation?

Is your TRUTH the same as every Christians? or is your TRUTH what you have learned based on how you interpreted the version?

I'm not trying to be difficult.

I'm just attempting to tell you that what you see as the TRUTH and nothing but, is not necessarily the same view that someone else may have.

Part of what makes each of us an individual...is that we each go through life as an individual....with different experiences that shape us and our way of thinking, viewing the world and all parts of it.

No two people walk the exact same path in this world. While we may have situations that are eerily similar, they are not exact.

Religion is different for each individual. Just as each individual has a personal relationship with God that is not the same as another's. You and your very closest person, may have the same views regarding God and your church, religion, etc. But each of you will have a different relationship with God...simply because of your individuality.

I can tell you that I have had 2 very up close and personal encounters with God. I know that He exists because he spoke to me. Can I tell you what He looked like? Nope. But I can tell you what I felt when He held me. Was there a "white light" that some people have seen? Nope. But there was such a presence, that there was nothing else there but me and Him and my hospital bed. Was it drugs and hallucination? Maybe some people think so....but it doesn't matter ....because I know.

It's all about faith. And how each individual wishes to believe in it and practice that faith.....and most importantly it is between the individual person and God what is TRUE, A LIE, AN INTERPRETATION, AN OPINION.


Truth is true.  Anything else is untrue.  Your situation may vary, but God's truth does not.  Your relationship may vary, but His foundation does not.  His original words were absolute truth.  As they survive and are translated into different languages, different ideas can arise.  Some of those ideas are not true.  That is why a true Biblical scholar that wants the most possible TRUTH will study more than one translation, will study the original languages, will study the opinions of those that have also learned a great deal, will study the culture of the times, will study the history of the times, will study the archeological evidence...so that, in the end, that scholar can have a good handle on what is true, what is correctly translated, the significance of the writings given the culture.  

For those that have not had enough time to study everything, we study the writings of those that did spend that time.  We work to divine the truth, we sort out authors that tell obvious half- and untruths, we hold to authors that tell as much actual truth as possible.  That way, we learn what God intended us to learn, not what Satan has told the world all along.

Just as you cannot learn math by reading books that say 2 + 2 = 5, 7 - 3 =3...you cannot learn about God from books that lie.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2010, 10:20:31 PM »
My wife is nearly blind, so she couldn't read it.....but she'd get a hell of a kick out of the idea that someone went to all that trouble...... :-)

doc

On Edit:  Knowing her sense of humor, she would likely enjoy passing it around.......particularly if her "fictional" life is more exciting than her real on has been......but she is a redhead.....they are all crazy anyway......
And you'd tell all your friends..."If you really want to know my wife better, read this book.  You'll especially enjoy the part that details how she escaped from prison after she murdered her parents...and what she did to all those kids we used to have."   :lmao:  

After all, knowledge is good...even if it isn't true.
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Offline debk

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2010, 10:25:51 PM »
......but she is a redhead.....they are all crazy anyway......

ahem.....I take issue with being referred to as crazy.

 :hammer:

I prefer "feisty"..... :tongue:
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline debk

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2010, 10:29:26 PM »

For those that have not had enough time to study everything, we study the writings of those that did spend that time.  We work to divine the truth, we sort out authors that tell obvious half- and untruths, we hold to authors that tell as much actual truth as possible.  That way, we learn what God intended us to learn, not what Satan has told the world all along.

Just as you cannot learn math by reading books that say 2 + 2 = 5, 7 - 3 =3...you cannot learn about God from books that lie.


If you are reading books that are written by people who have done "research"....you are reading opinions and interpretations.

Look into your heart.....talk to God....listen for His answers.

That's where you will find TRUTH.

That's where you will find God's Word....to you.
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2010, 11:28:31 PM »
And you'd tell all your friends..."If you really want to know my wife better, read this book.  You'll especially enjoy the part that details how she escaped from prison after she murdered her parents...and what she did to all those kids we used to have."   :lmao:  

After all, knowledge is good...even if it isn't true.

Look....I'm a scientist and an academic......you are not going to convince me of "your version of truth" by continuing to spout nonsensical platitudes about it and tell funny stories......I think debk summarized it best when she stated that religion is a "subjective" thing, and it impacts all of us differently.  You and I have crossed swords on this issue for weeks now, and as I am what I am, and trained as a "seeker of truth" you are not going to convince me to just lay down and accept everything that you throw in my direction as "Gospel" (to coin a phrase).  Many things about religion I accept on faith, and faith alone, but that doesn't stop me from looking for the facts to back that up.........that isn't going to change.

I'm very happy that you feel comfortable with your interpretation of the faith......why can't you allow the rest of persue our own quest for that truth.....as we see it.....after all it really isn't any skin off your nose anyway.

You don't even want us to DISCUSS concepts that you disagree with, without jumping in and telling us all what heretics we are .....and frankly that gets old......now many of us can see why people make fun of Christians, and their proselytizing.......if others are discussing something, it is the essence if impoliteness to barge in and advise us (figuratively) that we are all going to hell if we don't do it your way......

You are an intelligent lady, I respect your opinions, and you have definite contributions to make in religious discussions, but the MANNER in which you do it adds nothing to the discussion, and does nothing to add credibility to your opinions.....we want to hear them, just don't stomp all over everyone else's in the process.

How can I be any more succinct than that?

Would it be possible for you to allow others to express their thoughts without fear of condemnation?

It would seem to me to be the "Christian"  thing to do.....

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chris_

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2010, 11:41:34 PM »

Is your TRUTH the same as every Christians? or is your TRUTH what you have learned based on how you interpreted the version?

I'm not trying to be difficult.

I'm just attempting to tell you that what you see as the TRUTH and nothing but, is not necessarily the same view that someone else may have.


Deb....I've been trying to get that point across for weeks.....trust me, it ain't gonna happen, you are wasting your breath.......

You will just become more frustrated if you continue.....

A wise man once said:...."arguing with a zealot is a fool's errand......"

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2010, 12:01:16 AM »

If you are reading books that are written by people who have done "research"....you are reading opinions and interpretations.

Look into your heart.....talk to God....listen for His answers.

That's where you will find TRUTH.

That's where you will find God's Word....to you.
Yeah, cause ONLY God can talk to your heart, right?  Satan couldn't ever fool someone.  Wishful thinking couldn't ever make someone believe something incorrect, right?  Listen, if "God" ever tells you to go do a Scott Roeder, do a little research before you believe that "feeling."  
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Antifa - the only fascists in America today.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The Crisis in American Christendom
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2010, 12:08:32 AM »
Look....I'm a scientist and an academic......you are not going to convince me of "your version of truth" by continuing to spout nonsensical platitudes about it and tell funny stories......I think debk summarized it best when she stated that religion is a "subjective" thing, and it impacts all of us differently.  You and I have crossed swords on this issue for weeks now, and as I am what I am, and trained as a "seeker of truth" you are not going to convince me to just lay down and accept everything that you throw in my direction as "Gospel" (to coin a phrase).  Many things about religion I accept on faith, and faith alone, but that doesn't stop me from looking for the facts to back that up.........that isn't going to change.

I'm very happy that you feel comfortable with your interpretation of the faith......why can't you allow the rest of persue our own quest for that truth.....as we see it.....after all it really isn't any skin off your nose anyway.

You don't even want us to DISCUSS concepts that you disagree with, without jumping in and telling us all what heretics we are .....and frankly that gets old......now many of us can see why people make fun of Christians, and their proselytizing.......if others are discussing something, it is the essence if impoliteness to barge in and advise us (figuratively) that we are all going to hell if we don't do it your way......

You are an intelligent lady, I respect your opinions, and you have definite contributions to make in religious discussions, but the MANNER in which you do it adds nothing to the discussion, and does nothing to add credibility to your opinions.....we want to hear them, just don't stomp all over everyone else's in the process.

How can I be any more succinct than that?

Would it be possible for you to allow others to express their thoughts without fear of condemnation?

It would seem to me to be the "Christian"  thing to do.....

doc
Why don't you just come out and say, "Shut up and go away?"  I'm sorry if I've irritated you.  Well, no, actually I'm not.  You wouldn't be so upset if you didn't understand my point.  You are completely free to go seek whatever you want, wherever you want.  It's not like I could force you not to...even if I ever would.  You just will never get around the fact that studying things that are not true won't gain you anything true.

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Antifa - the only fascists in America today.