Author Topic: Translation Errors in Scripture  (Read 21783 times)

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Offline Doc

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2010, 04:03:02 PM »
I'm sure.  His geneology is through David, who was the tribe of Judah.  And Jewish priests in the OT were allowed to marry.  Jesus, in the passage, explains why he permitted Mary to anoint his feet with perfume.

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USAforMe is correct about the absolute use of the title "Rabbi", as the qualifications for the distinction are well established in Jewish Law, however I suspect that he might have also tripped over another "interpretation" error in our current Bible, inasmich as Christ was, in fact a "teacher", and at least in orthodox terms, the translation of the  modern Hebrew word "Rabbi" is most commonly "teacher"....

Often the case with ancient writings, especially in dead languages, is that they often do not translate well to English, or any other modern language for that matter......hence the discussion....

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« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 04:37:22 PM by TVDOC »

Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2010, 04:10:51 PM »
USAforMe is correct about the absolute use of the title "Rabbi", as the qualifications for the distinction are well established in Jewish Law, however I suspect that he might have also tripped over another "interpretation" error in our current Bible, inasmich as Christ was, in fact a "teacher", and at least in orthodox terms, the translation of the word modern Hebrew word "Rabbi" is most commonly "teacher"....

Actually, I got it from John 1:38

"Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”
They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?”"

I believe the same word can also be translated "master."

But there's no way priests (rabbis) can be from the tribe of Judah, which would mean if they were in fact calling Him a rabbi, they called Him something he couldn't be, and He didn't correct them.  I have no reason to believe Jesus would allow that, so they were saying "teacher."

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2010, 04:12:47 PM »
In those cases, it would be better intrepreted to be the word "teacher."  Priests (rabbis) could only be from the tribe of Levi.  Jesus was from the tribe of Judah.

You're thinking of the kohenim and they had specific priestly duties vis-a-vis sacrifices and such.

Rabbi is the term for teacher and can apply to any person of due scholarship.

The Greek term rabboni is a transliteration of rabbi and would have no other reasonable application. Greeks had priests, but no rabbis.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2010, 04:18:25 PM »
Rabbi is the term for teacher and can apply to any person of due scholarship.

I agree, they were calling Him rabbi as in "teacher."

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2010, 05:47:41 PM »
You are possibly correct that he could read, as the New Testament advises us that he studied in the Temple as a youth, under the scholars of the day.....however, the skill of "writing" was closely held by the Temple scribes, and was a mark of high status in Jewish society at that time.....there is no proof that he could write.....this is at least tacitly supported by the fact that none of his teachings were committed to text until at least half a century after his death.......regarding your statement that as God, he was all-knowing, perhaps you are correct, but he, alas did not demonstrate that characteristic to us.....so far as literacy is concerned.

And you are certainly welcome to accept that as a matter of "faith" however, we are dealing with what can be reinforced by empirical evidence.

Sorry, but your own rebuttal post stated that it is likely an error, and the scholar that you referenced indicated that his opinion was supposition.....in other words, his "best guess".

True, my observation was that it was "unusual" considering His audience.....and I have a problem with it because it is an obvious translation/interpretation error.

As you and I have debated before.....You are perfectly free to accept the present Bible Scriptures as "word for word" absolute......I don't, and your continuing to assert that they are, without evidence to back that assertion up,  is not going to change my mind.  Nor is it going to make it empirically correct.......if it enhances your faith, I'm happy for you, but one of the problems that I have with some groups and aspects of modern Christian teaching is the "It's my way or the highway" attitude........

I post these subjects for members to read that are interested in the history and roots of Christianity, its facts, and inconsistancies.....it is a tool that I offer to those that are interested in challenging their preconceptions, and becoming more comfortable with Christ's teachings.......if these humble offerings don't do that for you, you don't have to participate.

I'm not trying to challenge anyone's faith, merely stimulate thought and offer knowledge.....

doc
It would seem that He demonstrated His literacy quite well, given that His words have been memory-catching enough to be translated and quoted in every human language. 

That He is God is somewhat more than something a Christian "takes on faith."  It is, rather, a foundational fact.

The verse is in no way mistranslated, despite your efforts to make something quite obvious into something obscure.  The meaning of the verse is even clear to small children...so long as they have ever seen a camel.  That the verse may have been a pun in the original language can ADD some knowledge, but it doesn't change it or make it incorrectly translated in any way.  English simply doesn't have the same depth to the same words.  That's why those that really want the depth study the original language.

There is nothing inconsistent about Christianity.    Given that it is God's invention, it can't be inconsistent.  At most, we could say that many people do not have the knowledge to understand it, but that doesn't make it inconsistent.  It merely means that those who "discover" inconsistancies need to look into them until they are cleared up in that person's mind.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2010, 05:53:23 PM »
The verse is in no way mistranslated, despite your efforts to make something quite obvious into something obscure. 

You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how presumptuous it may be.....

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2010, 06:13:58 PM »
You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how presumptuous it may be.....

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Offline ChuckJ

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2010, 03:57:28 PM »
Another member asked the same question on the first page, and I hadn't gotten around to it as yet......

My source for the statement is the Smithsonian Institution, and a display in the Museum of Science and Industry, which traces the development of modern sewing tools.......according to this exhibit, the needle existed as far back as 5000 BC, however needles made with actual holes for thread were not around prior to the eleventh century.......a variety of other methods for guiding the thread were employed.....grooves, hooks, forks, but no "holes"...

Mrs Doc was a terrific seamstress, and had particular interest in that display when we visited, so I picked up a brochure on it in the gift shop......I don't know if it is on the net, but I'll look for a link........

doc

The Smithsonian Institute MAY be incorrect. If found several incidents of eyes much earlier then the 11th century.

Here's one link: ancient bone needle
Here's another: OId Needle

And one more at: More needle info

The info at the above site says:
    
Needle
This artifact was used for stitching hides.

Stone Age technology included delicate sewing needles made of bone with punched eyeholes. They were probably used in tandem with thread fashioned from plant fibers or animal sinew. Archeologists have found bone needles dating to within the past 20,000 years in Europe and North America, where they might have facilitated clothing and boat production.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 04:00:21 PM by ChuckJ »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2010, 04:47:23 PM »
The Smithsonian Institute MAY be incorrect. If found several incidents of eyes much earlier then the 11th century.

Here's one link: ancient bone needle
Here's another: OId Needle

And one more at: More needle info

The info at the above site says:
    
Needle
This artifact was used for stitching hides.

Stone Age technology included delicate sewing needles made of bone with punched eyeholes. They were probably used in tandem with thread fashioned from plant fibers or animal sinew. Archeologists have found bone needles dating to within the past 20,000 years in Europe and North America, where they might have facilitated clothing and boat production.


Probably correct......I had only the one source, the needle was a minor mystery, but the real  point, at least for me was the "Camel-rope" thing......

My overriding objective in these discussions is to illuminate the fact that it is frequently dangerous to rely on verbatim quotations when studing Scripture......as was pointed out in the "Armageddon" thread, more modern translations of the Scriptures are addressing these obvious errors (even though the "fundamentalists" among us refuse to acknowledge this), and clarifying the texts in order to make them more understandable to English (and other) Christians......

As I also mentioned in that thread, I was raised in an era where the KJV was all there was, and many still use it......when looking at the Armageddon exerpt from the other thread, it becomes clear that there have been great advances in translation and understanding of the origional languages.....between 1388, when the KJV was finalized, until today......over 700 years of study and knowledge.........as a result, the texts have subtly changed.

Although studying the KJV in context, considering the story as an overall entity (and not relying on verbatim passages) will give you the message certainly.....it is not without confusion, considering its age.......

doc
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2010, 10:05:51 AM »
The verse is in no way mistranslated, despite your efforts to make something quite obvious into something obscure...

Even if it weren't mistranslated it seems to ahve been horribly misexplained over the centuries.

Christians are not exempt for accumulating folklore.

It seems to me the modern church is fevered with the notion of divorcing itself from all vestiges of the OT except when they need the OT to prove a point for their personal benefit. Every teaching, every prophecy, every injunction and every observance spoken of by Jesus in the NT has an OT precedent and many more--such as the aforementioned needle illustration--have extra-scriptural origins, i.e. rabbinic lore.

I'm told that all matters OT were done away with upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. Yet, the death, resurrection and ascension of the NT correspond exactly with OT rituals. Mistranslation?

I'm told christians are not "under the law" but when I ask if they are free to commit murder and adultery the answer is no and I'm directed to Pauline instructions forbidding such things. Yet, Paul was never designated as being a lawgiver and any law he set forth he gained from the OT.

I'm told the Jewish rituals are for Jews. Yet, I've never read an injunction FORBIDDING the goyim from participating in Jewish ritual...so long as their participation was joyous and sincere, even in the NT. Moreover, scripture is pretty thick with warnings against allowing pagan rituals to infect the ecclesia. Certainly anyone claiming OT observances were corrupted by the cynical gamesmanship of false piety cannot possibly defend X-mas from the same charges.

I'm told the NT sets out a covenant from God himself that can never be repealed. Oddly, God said the same thing about the OT. Unless God is two-faced or a liar methinks the answer would have to be seen as an amalgamation of covenants.

It seems to me that if proper exegesis is the issue than cultural, historical and scriptural context makes all the difference. I know plenty of denominations warn heavily against Jewish "corruptions" of NT theology but from what I have heard over the years is scripture should trump loyalties to human inventions.

If I were a church-going bunny and I had a preacher that insisted a passage should be interpreted as X but there were no historical, cultural or scriptural basis for his interpretation but then I found sources elsewhere that very soundly established a basis for a different interpretation I would be strongly motivated to ask him if perhaps further study was warranted. If he persisted with his interpretation without basis and evidence to the contrary continued to grow against him I would then begin to question my on-going presence within his congregation. He may be the sweetest indiviual in town but if he is selling me a bill of goods and cannot be swayed by evidence of plain truth then perhaps he is too entrenched in tradition and tradition is no trump to truth...or maybe I am just a disruptor who should remove himself for the betterment of all.

Still, being mislead whether innocently or not is something I cannot endure. One of us must go. That's why I walked away from the liberalism of my upbringing.

DISCLAIMER: I am neither Jewish nor Christian. I am an observer who takes words at their face value and wonders what all the fuss is about.

flame on
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2010, 12:23:05 PM »
Even if it weren't mistranslated it seems to ahve been horribly misexplained over the centuries.

Christians are not exempt for accumulating folklore.

It seems to me the modern church is fevered with the notion of divorcing itself from all vestiges of the OT except when they need the OT to prove a point for their personal benefit. Every teaching, every prophecy, every injunction and every observance spoken of by Jesus in the NT has an OT precedent and many more--such as the aforementioned needle illustration--have extra-scriptural origins, i.e. rabbinic lore.

I'm told that all matters OT were done away with upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. Yet, the death, resurrection and ascension of the NT correspond exactly with OT rituals. Mistranslation?

I'm told christians are not "under the law" but when I ask if they are free to commit murder and adultery the answer is no and I'm directed to Pauline instructions forbidding such things. Yet, Paul was never designated as being a lawgiver and any law he set forth he gained from the OT.

I'm told the Jewish rituals are for Jews. Yet, I've never read an injunction FORBIDDING the goyim from participating in Jewish ritual...so long as their participation was joyous and sincere, even in the NT. Moreover, scripture is pretty thick with warnings against allowing pagan rituals to infect the ecclesia. Certainly anyone claiming OT observances were corrupted by the cynical gamesmanship of false piety cannot possibly defend X-mas from the same charges.

I'm told the NT sets out a covenant from God himself that can never be repealed. Oddly, God said the same thing about the OT. Unless God is two-faced or a liar methinks the answer would have to be seen as an amalgamation of covenants.

It seems to me that if proper exegesis is the issue than cultural, historical and scriptural context makes all the difference. I know plenty of denominations warn heavily against Jewish "corruptions" of NT theology but from what I have heard over the years is scripture should trump loyalties to human inventions.

If I were a church-going bunny and I had a preacher that insisted a passage should be interpreted as X but there were no historical, cultural or scriptural basis for his interpretation but then I found sources elsewhere that very soundly established a basis for a different interpretation I would be strongly motivated to ask him if perhaps further study was warranted. If he persisted with his interpretation without basis and evidence to the contrary continued to grow against him I would then begin to question my on-going presence within his congregation. He may be the sweetest indiviual in town but if he is selling me a bill of goods and cannot be swayed by evidence of plain truth then perhaps he is too entrenched in tradition and tradition is no trump to truth...or maybe I am just a disruptor who should remove himself for the betterment of all.

Still, being mislead whether innocently or not is something I cannot endure. One of us must go. That's why I walked away from the liberalism of my upbringing.

DISCLAIMER: I am neither Jewish nor Christian. I am an observer who takes words at their face value and wonders what all the fuss is about.

flame on

Very good!   

Which plays right into my next thread......"The Crisis in American Christendom"

doc
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2010, 12:54:53 PM »
It seems to me the modern church is fevered with the notion of divorcing itself from all vestiges of the OT except when they need the OT to prove a point for their personal benefit. Every teaching, every prophecy, every injunction and every observance spoken of by Jesus in the NT has an OT precedent and many more--such as the aforementioned needle illustration--have extra-scriptural origins, i.e. rabbinic lore.

The OT was the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

Gal 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

Quote from:
I'm told that all matters OT were done away with upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. Yet, the death, resurrection and ascension of the NT correspond exactly with OT rituals. Mistranslation?

I'm not even sure what the means.  Christ fulfilled all prophesy.  Maybe that was what you are making reference.

Quote from:
I'm told christians are not "under the law" but when I ask if they are free to commit murder and adultery the answer is no and I'm directed to Pauline instructions forbidding such things. Yet, Paul was never designated as being a lawgiver and any law he set forth he gained from the OT.

Christians are not uder the Old Law, but the New.  And Paul was an Apostle.  The Apostles were called ambassadors.  The were also called earthen vessels.  It was through the Apostles that the Spirit of God continued to instruct the saints after Christ had assended back to the Father.  That was their purpose.  Paul even notes that the very things he said when presenting the gospel were of God.

I Cor. 2:4 "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."

Quote from:
I'm told the NT sets out a covenant from God himself that can never be repealed. Oddly, God said the same thing about the OT. Unless God is two-faced or a liar methinks the answer would have to be seen as an amalgamation of covenants.

Please quote that book, chapter and verse.  I think you're confusing the term "end of the age"  to mean the end of all time, but until you point out where you formed the idea, that's just a guess.

Quote from:
It seems to me that if proper exegesis is the issue than cultural, historical and scriptural context makes all the difference. I know plenty of denominations warn heavily against Jewish "corruptions" of NT theology but from what I have heard over the years is scripture should trump loyalties to human inventions.

Personally, it seems to have been more of a problem with the early church as there were "judiazing teachers" that wanted to mix Jewish law with the law of Christ.  Specifically, they were teaching that circumcision was still required under the New Law, which it wasn't.

Quote from:
If I were a church-going bunny and I had a preacher that insisted a passage should be interpreted as X but there were no historical, cultural or scriptural basis for his interpretation but then I found sources elsewhere that very soundly established a basis for a different interpretation I would be strongly motivated to ask him if perhaps further study was warranted. If he persisted with his interpretation without basis and evidence to the contrary continued to grow against him I would then begin to question my on-going presence within his congregation. He may be the sweetest indiviual in town but if he is selling me a bill of goods and cannot be swayed by evidence of plain truth then perhaps he is too entrenched in tradition and tradition is no trump to truth...or maybe I am just a disruptor who should remove himself for the betterment of all.

I would agree, emphasis on the "scriptural basis" far and above the "historical and cultural."

Quote from:
flame on

Nah.  I must say I don't see this as a translation error in that it can be understood what was being said.  A translation error to me is like Acts 12:4.

"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

Now that's a mistranslation.  The word should have never been translated "Easter," but rather "Passover."  Other translations caught it and correctly translated, but the KJV didn't.

But a passage though which with a little study I can understand what message is being presented, like this eye of needle and camel thing, not so much.

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2010, 02:21:20 PM »
The OT was the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

Gal 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Yes, but once a lesson is learned the teachings are not abandoned, are they?

If you studied classical Hebrew and passed your final exam would you do away with every lesson you ahd learned or would you take what you had learned and use it to deepen your studies with something more meaningful?

Quote
I'm not even sure what the means.  Christ fulfilled all prophesy.  Maybe that was what you are making reference.
He was crucified on Passover, resurrected on First Fruits and ascended on Shavuots.

Shavuot was the 50th day after the weekly Sabbath following Passover; seven weeks, plus one day. Pentecost, translated, is "50th day." The Book of Acts even notes people were in Jerusalem to mark that festival.

Each major event of the Passion resides within the Jewish liturgical calendar. Is this mere coincidence or is it part and parcel of the narrative?

Is it merely a crass irony that the pillar of flame that issued the 10 Commandments 50 days after the 1st Passover appeared as a tongue of flame over the congregants in Jerusalem (who were markedly devoid of goyim at the time)?

Can ignorance of the Jewish liturgical calendar be condoned when the church has spent centuries tying itself into interpretive knots trying to justify a Sunday resurrection when the reality is Passover is one of 7 annual "high Sabbaths" in addition to the weekly Sabbath. Thus the need to twist the 2 sabbaths mentioned in the NT while still maintaining the Sabbath resurrection 3 days later becomes obviated.

Quote
Christians are not uder the Old Law, but the New.  And Paul was an Apostle.  The Apostles were called ambassadors.  The were also called earthen vessels.  It was through the Apostles that the Spirit of God continued to instruct the saints after Christ had assended back to the Father.  That was their purpose.  Paul even notes that the very things he said when presenting the gospel were of God.
Apostle, by definition means: eye witness, not ambassador. Evangelicals would be a more exacting term and that requires no eyewitness observations.

Even still there are no new commandments, save, "love one another as I have loved you." No NT writer ever invented a new commandment. The prohibitions against drunkeness, adultery, unwarranted violence, lying etc were already well established...in the OT.

Quote
I Cor. 2:4 "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."
I repeat, no human since Moses has communicated a wholly new commandment.

Quote
Please quote that book, chapter and verse.  I think you're confusing the term "end of the age"  to mean the end of all time, but until you point out where you formed the idea, that's just a guess.

Ex 31:16 calls the sabbath observance the reminder of a perpetual covenant.

Now, some "replacement" theologians have argued that Israel has been--well--replaced and thus any reference to Israel means "christians." I find fault with this argument on several grounds:

* In Romans Paul says one day all Israel will be saved. If Israel = christian this becomes a mindless tautalogy that says, "One day the saved will be saved."

* the Sabbath is still the Sabbath and that ain't Sunday.

* such doctrines seem to accuse God of having chosen poorly

* if Israel can be replaced...so can you

* such difficulties are compounded in light of the doctrine of the trinity. If Jesus is God and God is Jesus then Jesus was the author of the Mosaic laws. Correct if I am wrong but no member of the trinity sits above the others.

Quote
Personally, it seems to have been more of a problem with the early church as there were "judiazing teachers" that wanted to mix Jewish law with the law of Christ.  Specifically, they were teaching that circumcision was still required under the New Law, which it wasn't.
Understood, but who should I fear more: judaizing teachers or paganizing teachers?

Or both?

I would reason that if the OT was the "letter" of the law and the NT would be the "spirit" of the law. In such a discussion we are told that looking on a woman lustfully is as much a sin as adultery. "But I never touched her!" seems a poor defence when the charge is, "You sexually objectified one of my beloved creations." It still betrays a corrosion of the soul that dehumanizes a woman into a mere sexual outlet to be used and discarded with no concern for her as a unique person with an eternal destiny.

Now, this spiritual aspect of the commandment "Thou shall not commit adultery" does nothing to abrogate the original letter of the law. It raises the bar, not lower or abolish the bar. Indeed, if all woman were viewed as unique beings with eternal destinies, beloved by their creator and not to be objectified to one's selfish gain then commandments against adultery would be unwarranted.

It seems Jesus is telling people 1) do the right thing FOR THE RIGHT REASON, not just because you're trying to demand a place in heaven as if God were a subway ticket machine and 2) oh, by the way, get off your high horse cuz I know y'all are guilty as sin

If a man held murderous hate towards his brother but never struck him down would that make him a pious man or simply a man that feared the consequences of civil (or spiritual) authorities? If only the latter it would serve him poorly to stand before his maker and claim rights to Heaven based on having never struck a fellow man in anger.

(NOTE: I feel very peculiar making this line of argument as I am pretty much an avowed nihilistic hedonist. Still, I can understand why certain commandments would be given if one were to take a spiritual tack. Sort of a "devil's advocate" if I may be permitted the ill-fitting pun.)

Thank-you for your conversation.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2010, 03:15:47 PM »
Yes, but once a lesson is learned the teachings are not abandoned, are they?

If you studied classical Hebrew and passed your final exam would you do away with every lesson you ahd learned or would you take what you had learned and use it to deepen your studies with something more meaningful?

The lesson learned was that Christ was the fullfilment of prophecy.

Quote from:
He was crucified on Passover, resurrected on First Fruits and ascended on Shavuots.  Shavuot was the 50th day after the weekly Sabbath following Passover; seven weeks, plus one day. Pentecost, translated, is "50th day." The Book of Acts even notes people were in Jerusalem to mark that festival.

Each major event of the Passion resides within the Jewish liturgical calendar. Is this mere coincidence or is it part and parcel of the narrative?

Is it merely a crass irony that the pillar of flame that issued the 10 Commandments 50 days after the 1st Passover appeared as a tongue of flame over the congregants in Jerusalem (who were markedly devoid of goyim at the time)?

Can ignorance of the Jewish liturgical calendar be condoned when the church has spent centuries tying itself into interpretive knots trying to justify a Sunday resurrection when the reality is Passover is one of 7 annual "high Sabbaths" in addition to the weekly Sabbath. Thus the need to twist the 2 sabbaths mentioned in the NT while still maintaining the Sabbath resurrection 3 days later becomes obviated.

I agree, there are parallels to be made between what God had the Israelites do, events that happened in the OT, and the life and death of Christ.  Hence why it is called a schoolmaster that pointed to Christ.

Quote from:
Apostle, by definition means: eye witness, not ambassador.

Not what I said.  The scriptures calls the Apostles "ambassadors," an ambassador being an authorized messenger or representative.

2 Cor. 5:20 - "We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

Quote from:
Even still there are no new commandments, save, "love one another as I have loved you." No NT writer ever invented a new commandment. The prohibitions against drunkeness, adultery, unwarranted violence, lying etc were already well established...in the OT.

I repeat, no human since Moses has communicated a wholly new commandment.

I completely disagree.  The Sabbath was changed to the first day of the week.  The establishment of taking the Lord's Supper to remember the death of Christ was made.  The guidelines for the appointment of elders and deacons in the church was given.

Now, if your point is that the day of worship was simply moved, but worshipping isn't a new commandment; or that the Lord's Supper was a carry-over of the unleaven bread and fruit of the vine from the Passover feast that was simply reissued for another purpose; or that elders and deacons are still part of the organization of worship just like the priests of old; then on that we can agree.  However, when you say to me "no new commandments," to me that means if one were to do the old commandments, they would still be OK, with which I disagree.  The new commandments (or as you might view it, "updated" commandments) are the one's to be followed now.

Quote from:
Ex 31:16 calls the sabbath observance the reminder of a perpetual covenant.

... through their generations (of Israel).  "Perpetual" doesn't always mean forever in Jewish writings and there are several cases of this type of wordage being used in the OT to describe the end of a period or the end of an age, but I'm not in the place where I keep those references as I type this out so I can't forward the books and articles to read on the topic.  The end of the age of the law of Moses was when the New Law was established.  Which brings us to...

Quote from:
Now, some "replacement" theologians have argued that Israel has been--well--replaced and thus any reference to Israel means "christians." I find fault with this argument on several grounds:

Easy to explain.  The Old Law was a physical law.  The New Law is a spiritual law.  The Old Law was written for "physical Israel," and the New Law is for "spiritual Israel," that is, Christians.

Quote from:
Understood, but who should I fear more: judaizing teachers or paganizing teachers?

False teachers of any kind is who to fear, whether they be judaizing, pagan, or other.

Quote from:
It seems Jesus is telling people 1) do the right thing FOR THE RIGHT REASON, not just because you're trying to demand a place in heaven as if God were a subway ticket machine and 2) oh, by the way, get off your high horse cuz I know y'all are guilty as sin

I would say it this way: "Do the right thing because, as one who claims they wish to live their life as a child of God and in His service, you have dedicated your life to being obedient to His Word, and this is what He would have you to do."

Quote from:
If a man held murderous hate towards his brother but never struck him down would that make him a pious man or simply a man that feared the consequences of civil (or spiritual) authorities? If only the latter it would serve him poorly to stand before his maker and claim rights to Heaven based on having never struck a fellow man in anger.

In spiritual terms, it would make him a sinner, and if he didn't repent then I agree, he will have difficulty standing before God in the end.

.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 03:48:19 PM by USA4ME »
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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2010, 04:07:46 PM »
The lesson learned was that Christ was the fullfilment of prophecy.
This seems a half-answer.

Why does the church seem so eager to see a prophecy fulfilled and then chucked out the window in favor of observances that were the antithesis of everything their God wanted?

Quote
I agree, there are parallels to be made between what God had the Israelites do, events that happened in the OT, and the life and death of Christ.  Hence why it is called a schoolmaster that pointed to Christ.
Parallels? You sound as if they are merely happy coincidences.

If--strictly for the sake of conversation--the Passover was a prophecy/prefiguration of the Passion then by what leap of logic can explain the current fascination with the fertility rites of Ishtar? Why not continue to observe the Passover and demonstrate it fulfillments?

Quote
The Sabbath was changed to the first day of the week.


I recall no, "thou shall..." Citation please.

It also seems to fly in the face of the fact that the apostles continued to observe the OT festivals as well.

Quote
... through their generations (of Israel).  "Perpetual" doesn't mean forever in Jewish writings and there are several cases of this type of wordage being used in the OT to describe the end of a period or the end of an age...

Then I must pose the same question Socrates posed to Euthyphro: does God command what is right or is it right because God commands it?

Quote
Easy to explain.  The Old Law was a physical law.  The New Law is a spiritual law.  The Old Law was written for "physical Israel," and the New Law is for "spiritual Israel," that is, Christians.

The Sabbath predates Moses and even Abraham.

Now personally, I am of the opinion the NT (or even the OT for that matter) does not see salvation as a theology exam. Mary was not chosen for her doctrinal purity but for the purity of her "heart" which, in turn, seems to indicate spiritual law trumped soulless religious mechanisms before Jesus was born, let alone the authorship of the NT. Read the major and minor prophets. They rail incessantly against OT observances being practiced with empty hearts.

I for one cannot imagine a god that could be jerked around by impious scoundrels for 1500 years suddenly wising up and deciding getting nailed to a cross would be the best remedy for his oversight. Either his standard has always been the same (genuine spirituality) or he is laughable rube at best or a capricious tyrant at worst. Most modern christian theology leaves me with one of these latter two impressions. Maybe that really is what God is like or maybe modern theology just sucks.

Or maybe I'm just an asshole.

The last time the Jehovah's Witnesses were at my door. You know it is one of their doctrines that humans do not reside in hell forever. they are merely consumed and then annihilated.

They started with the ol', "Do you read your Bible?"

"Sometimes."

"That's wonderful. What do you think?"

"I wonder if I want to be a better bunny...but then I wonder if I would be doing ot for the right reason."

(Sympathetic...with an emphasis on pathetic) "How could you possibly do the right thing for the worng reasons?"

"I'm not sure if I want to be good cuz God is awesome or if its just because I'm scared of going to Hell forever."

"Oh...but God doesn't send people to hell for eternity."

"He doesn't?"

"No, friend."

(pause)

"Huh...

"...well, see you down at the titty bar."

*closes door*


yeah, I'm an asshole...but at least they never came back.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2010, 04:44:08 PM »
The last time the Jehovah's Witnesses were at my door. You know it is one of their doctrines that humans do not reside in hell forever. they are merely consumed and then annihilated.

They started with the ol', "Do you read your Bible?"

"Sometimes."

"That's wonderful. What do you think?"

"I wonder if I want to be a better bunny...but then I wonder if I would be doing ot for the right reason."

(Sympathetic...with an emphasis on pathetic) "How could you possibly do the right thing for the worng reasons?"

"I'm not sure if I want to be good cuz God is awesome or if its just because I'm scared of going to Hell forever."

"Oh...but God doesn't send people to hell for eternity."

"He doesn't?"

"No, friend."

(pause)

"Huh...

"...well, see you down at the titty bar."

*closes door*


yeah, I'm an *******...but at least they never came back.

 :rotf: :rotf:

For a rabbit, you have one wicked sense of humor.........

doc
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2010, 04:52:50 PM »
Why does the church seem so eager to see a prophecy fulfilled and then chucked out the window in favor of observances that were the antithesis of everything their God wanted?

The OT law served its purpose.  The NT law is a better law.

Quote from:
Parallels? You sound as if they are merely happy coincidences.

Oh, no.  There's definately lessons to be gleened from the likenesses of what was done in the OT and what is commanded in the NT.

Quote from:
If--strictly for the sake of conversation--the Passover was a prophecy/prefiguration of the Passion then by what leap of logic can explain the current fascination with the fertility rites of Ishtar? Why not continue to observe the Passover and demonstrate it fulfillments?

This "Ishtar" thing means nothing to me.  I even googled it and couldn't figure out what it's all about.  Whatever it is, I have no fascination with it.

The Law of Moses has been done away.  It was an imperfect law in that it couldn't ultimately forgive sins. So to observe the Passover is of no benefit.  It was a specific command for a specific time.

Quote from:
I recall no, "thou shall..." Citation please.

Necessary inference.

Act 20:7 - "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

When did the disciples come together to break bread (partake of the Lord's Supper)?  Upon the first day of the week.

Also, I Cor 16:2 - "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

When are Christian to lay by in store (give)?  Upon the first day of the week.

Pentecost was also on the first day of the week, the day the Spirit of God descended upon the Apostles in Jerusalem (Acts 2).

Quote from:
Then I must pose the same question Socrates posed to Euthyphro: does God command what is right or is it right because God commands it?

God is truth and His commandments are right.

Quote from:
The Sabbath predates Moses and even Abraham.

True, there's always been a seventh day of the week.  However, the Law of Moses established that certain worship of the Israelites be carried out on the Sabbath.  It was their "holy day."

Quote from:
Read the major and minor prophets. They rail incessantly against OT observances being practiced with empty hearts.

Agreed.

Quote from:
I for one cannot imagine a god that could be jerked around by impious scoundrels for 1500 years suddenly wising up and deciding getting nailed to a cross would be the best remedy for his oversight.

What oversight?  The Law of Moses was never meant to be a law that would ultimately save one's soul.

Heb 10:4 - "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

It was God's plan that Jesus would die.  It is through His bood that remission of sins is possible.

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Either his standard has always been the same (genuine spirituality)

It was always spiritual.  The Law of Moses was a physical law for the people of Israel.  It was the people who took the law and turned it into something mechanical.

Isaiah 29:13 - "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

Now, that's not to say there aren't physical commands to be carried out in the NT Law, but it's to be done from the heart in love, not done as some sort of checklist.

Quote from:
They started with the ol', "Do you read your Bible?"

The one's I know regard the Watchtower Society to be more important than the Bible.

.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2010, 05:06:37 PM »
The OT law served its purpose.  ... God is truth and His commandments are right.

^ These need reconciling.

BTW - the first "day" of the week in Acts 20:7 is "sabboton." It is the same Greek word used for other sabbaths. So what you have is the first sabbath of the "week."

Which week?

This would be the first sabbath of the seven sabbaths--a week of sabbaths--between Passover and Shavuots.

This is what I mean by christianity being cheated of scholarship out of some fabricated fear of judaism.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2010, 07:20:26 PM »
^ These need reconciling.

You'll need to tell me what it is that you see as irreconcilable in those two statements for me to answer.  Obviously I don't see any.

Quote from:
BTW - the first "day" of the week in Acts 20:7 is "sabboton." It is the same Greek word used for other sabbaths. So what you have is the first sabbath of the "week."

According to Strong's, the words there are "mia sabboton," mia meaning "first" and Sobboth meaning "day of week."  Ergo, "Upon first day of (the) week."

If I say to you "Upon the first day of the week, you and I will get together and go fishing," do you have any doubt what day that is?

---------

Frankly, I'm more interested in this "fertility rites of Ishtar" thing.  Maybe I know what it is by some other term, but as it stands, I don't know to what you're making reference.

.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 08:55:53 PM by USA4ME »
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2010, 04:12:11 AM »
You'll need to tell me what it is that you see as irreconcilable in those two statements for me to answer.  Obviously I don't see any.
You're accusing God of duping the Hebrews. You claim his commandments are right

You cited it yourself: the blood of animals cannot take away sin. So either God was:

A) playing a 1500 year practical joke and no Hebrew was ever saved

B) the animal sacrifices were an archetype...a prophecy of sorts

The fact that people corrupt something does not invalidate the thing, i.e. murder does not invalidate gun ownership. Religiously speaking, the fact Pat Robertson is a dottering old fool when claiming voodoo leads to earthquakes does not invalidate your beliefs, does it? How about the ol' "name it and claim it" hucksters of a decade or so ago?

Quote
....Sobboth meaning "day of week."  Ergo, "Upon first day of (the) week."
Absolutely not.
This is exactly one of the mis-renderings Doc is referring to.

The according to Strong's:
Quote
Transliteration

sabbaton
   

Pronunciation

sä'b-bä-ton (Key)

Part of Speech

neuter noun
   

Root Word (Etymology)

Of Hebrew origin שַׁבָּת (H7676)

TDNT Reference

7:1,989
   

Vines

View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work

a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week

b) a single sabbath, sabbath day

2) seven days, a week

 Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 68; sabbath day 37, sabbath 22, week 9
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4521&t=KJV


You cannot substitute sabbaton for day of the week, i.e. you could not substitute it for Tuesday. In fact the word "day" is inserted in brackets in the English renderings so obviously it is an editorial addition.

Quote
Frankly, I'm more interested in this "fertility rites of Ishtar" thing.  Maybe I know what it is by some other term, but as it stands, I don't know to what you're making reference.
Ishtar = Astarte = Asteroth = Easter = pagan fertility goddess

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Canaanite_Religion

She was quite the naughty little wench. Her son was her consort and her priestesses would hold orgies in sacred groves at the height of their menstrual cycles.

Solomon got in big trouble building a temple to her...but that's OT stuff so I'm sure its no big deal anymore.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2010, 06:26:03 AM »
Even if it weren't mistranslated it seems to ahve been horribly misexplained over the centuries.

Christians are not exempt for accumulating folklore.

It seems to me the modern church is fevered with the notion of divorcing itself from all vestiges of the OT except when they need the OT to prove a point for their personal benefit. Every teaching, every prophecy, every injunction and every observance spoken of by Jesus in the NT has an OT precedent and many more--such as the aforementioned needle illustration--have extra-scriptural origins, i.e. rabbinic lore.

I'm told that all matters OT were done away with upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. Yet, the death, resurrection and ascension of the NT correspond exactly with OT rituals. Mistranslation?
No, misunderstanding.  All matters OT are most certainly not "done away with."  Our commandments have changed.  We are not under some portions of the Law because animal sacrifice is no longer needed to cover sins (and cover is what it did, not take away as you state later.)  We are now commanded firstly by Christ's words...Love you neighbor, pray for your enemy, etc.  These take precedence over OT Law...Christ fulfilled the Law, He didn't abolish it.

I'm told christians are not "under the law" but when I ask if they are free to commit murder and adultery the answer is no and I'm directed to Pauline instructions forbidding such things. Yet, Paul was never designated as being a lawgiver and any law he set forth he gained from the OT.

I'm told the Jewish rituals are for Jews. Yet, I've never read an injunction FORBIDDING the goyim from participating in Jewish ritual...so long as their participation was joyous and sincere, even in the NT. Moreover, scripture is pretty thick with warnings against allowing pagan rituals to infect the ecclesia. Certainly anyone claiming OT observances were corrupted by the cynical gamesmanship of false piety cannot possibly defend X-mas from the same charges.

I'm told the NT sets out a covenant from God himself that can never be repealed. Oddly, God said the same thing about the OT. Unless God is two-faced or a liar methinks the answer would have to be seen as an amalgamation of covenants.
  The New Testament covenant is an extension of the covenant with Abraham.  It does not do away with any other covenants.  God still has a covenant with those Children of Israel that never come into the New Covenant with Christ...among other OT covenants that still stand. 

It seems to me that if proper exegesis is the issue than cultural, historical and scriptural context makes all the difference. I know plenty of denominations warn heavily against Jewish "corruptions" of NT theology but from what I have heard over the years is scripture should trump loyalties to human inventions.

If I were a church-going bunny and I had a preacher that insisted a passage should be interpreted as X but there were no historical, cultural or scriptural basis for his interpretation but then I found sources elsewhere that very soundly established a basis for a different interpretation I would be strongly motivated to ask him if perhaps further study was warranted. If he persisted with his interpretation without basis and evidence to the contrary continued to grow against him I would then begin to question my on-going presence within his congregation. He may be the sweetest indiviual in town but if he is selling me a bill of goods and cannot be swayed by evidence of plain truth then perhaps he is too entrenched in tradition and tradition is no trump to truth...or maybe I am just a disruptor who should remove himself for the betterment of all.

Still, being mislead whether innocently or not is something I cannot endure. One of us must go. That's why I walked away from the liberalism of my upbringing.

DISCLAIMER: I am neither Jewish nor Christian. I am an observer who takes words at their face value and wonders what all the fuss is about.

flame on
A pastor that does not already know the cultural basis and evidence shouldn't be preaching.  He wouldn't make it in any conservative church...though he might manage fine in the new liberal churches that have largely done away with scripture and study.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2010, 06:37:40 AM »

He was crucified on Passover, resurrected on First Fruits and ascended on Shavuots.

Shavuot was the 50th day after the weekly Sabbath following Passover; seven weeks, plus one day. Pentecost, translated, is "50th day." The Book of Acts even notes people were in Jerusalem to mark that festival.

Each major event of the Passion resides within the Jewish liturgical calendar. Is this mere coincidence or is it part and parcel of the narrative?

Is it merely a crass irony that the pillar of flame that issued the 10 Commandments 50 days after the 1st Passover appeared as a tongue of flame over the congregants in Jerusalem (who were markedly devoid of goyim at the time)?

Can ignorance of the Jewish liturgical calendar be condoned when the church has spent centuries tying itself into interpretive knots trying to justify a Sunday resurrection when the reality is Passover is one of 7 annual "high Sabbaths" in addition to the weekly Sabbath. Thus the need to twist the 2 sabbaths mentioned in the NT while still maintaining the Sabbath resurrection 3 days later becomes obviated.
You are evidently unaware that there are many studies on just this subject.  Jews for Jesus, in particular, has some extremely interesting ones.  I've attended one short presentation on it myself, and seen them advertised at other churches since.

Now, some "replacement" theologians have argued that Israel has been--well--replaced and thus any reference to Israel means "christians." I find fault with this argument on several grounds:

* In Romans Paul says one day all Israel will be saved. If Israel = christian this becomes a mindless tautalogy that says, "One day the saved will be saved."
  As mentioned above, Israel is still under a covenant.

* the Sabbath is still the Sabbath and that ain't Sunday.
  The Sabbath is a Jewish day, not a Christian day...though we do call our day by the same word.  We are aware that it's different.

* such doctrines seem to accuse God of having chosen poorly
  Misunderstanding can cause many troubles

* if Israel can be replaced...so can you
And they have not been replaced

* such difficulties are compounded in light of the doctrine of the trinity. If Jesus is God and God is Jesus then Jesus was the author of the Mosaic laws. Correct if I am wrong but no member of the trinity sits above the others.
Jesus was obviously the author of the Mosaic laws...for the covenant with the Children of Israel.  John makes Jesus role in all the acts of God quite clear.
Understood, but who should I fear more: judaizing teachers or paganizing teachers?

Or both?
  I would fear ignorance the most.

I would reason that if the OT was the "letter" of the law and the NT would be the "spirit" of the law. In such a discussion we are told that looking on a woman lustfully is as much a sin as adultery. "But I never touched her!" seems a poor defence when the charge is, "You sexually objectified one of my beloved creations." It still betrays a corrosion of the soul that dehumanizes a woman into a mere sexual outlet to be used and discarded with no concern for her as a unique person with an eternal destiny.

Now, this spiritual aspect of the commandment "Thou shall not commit adultery" does nothing to abrogate the original letter of the law. It raises the bar, not lower or abolish the bar. Indeed, if all woman were viewed as unique beings with eternal destinies, beloved by their creator and not to be objectified to one's selfish gain then commandments against adultery would be unwarranted.

It seems Jesus is telling people 1) do the right thing FOR THE RIGHT REASON, not just because you're trying to demand a place in heaven as if God were a subway ticket machine and 2) oh, by the way, get off your high horse cuz I know y'all are guilty as sin

If a man held murderous hate towards his brother but never struck him down would that make him a pious man or simply a man that feared the consequences of civil (or spiritual) authorities? If only the latter it would serve him poorly to stand before his maker and claim rights to Heaven based on having never struck a fellow man in anger.

(NOTE: I feel very peculiar making this line of argument as I am pretty much an avowed nihilistic hedonist. Still, I can understand why certain commandments would be given if one were to take a spiritual tack. Sort of a "devil's advocate" if I may be permitted the ill-fitting pun.)

Thank-you for your conversation.
Obviously, it does raise the bar.  As does the commandment to pray for your enemies instead of killing them.  As does the entire Sermon on the Mount.  This is somehow new??
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2010, 08:23:23 AM »
You're accusing God of duping the Hebrews. You claim his commandments are right

You cited it yourself: the blood of animals cannot take away sin. So either God was:

A) playing a 1500 year practical joke and no Hebrew was ever saved

B) the animal sacrifices were an archetype...a prophecy of sorts

The blood of Jesus to take away sins was also retroactive, so no dupe.  Every year the High Priest went into the Most Holy Place in the Temple and made a single attonement for the sins of Israel (this is all outlined in the OT and what was involved) which rolled the sins forward until the next year, and that happened every year, Jesus being the final sacrificial lamb which attoned for those sins.

Quote from:
You cannot substitute sabbaton for day of the week, i.e. you could not substitute it for Tuesday. In fact the word "day" is inserted in brackets in the English renderings so obviously it is an editorial addition.

I'm cross reverencing Strong's with an Interlinear and it reads the same as I posted.   I'm looking at how it is written in Greek, it was accurately translated, and I'm satistifed that what I wrote is exactly what it says because I'm sitting here looking at it.
 
Quote from:
Ishtar = Astarte = Asteroth = Easter = pagan fertility goddess

Solomon got in big trouble building a temple to her...but that's OT stuff so I'm sure its no big deal anymore.

Solomon did quite a few things he shouldn't have done and they serve as examples of what can happen when one turns their heart from God.

.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2010, 09:51:25 AM »
The blood of Jesus to take away sins was also retroactive, so no dupe.  Every year the High Priest went into the Most Holy Place in the Temple and made a single attonement for the sins of Israel (this is all outlined in the OT and what was involved) which rolled the sins forward until the next year, and that happened every year, Jesus being the final sacrificial lamb which attoned for those sins.

Really?

Gosh.

Quote
I'm cross reverencing Strong's with an Interlinear and it reads the same as I posted.   I'm looking at how it is written in Greek, it was accurately translated, and I'm satistifed that what I wrote is exactly what it says because I'm sitting here looking at it.

No you didn't not. You looked at the mistranslated "[day] of the week" saw the word "sabbaton" and said, "it must mean day of the week."

I copy and pasted the translation. At this point I do not trust your personal reportage on the matter. You're not the only one who knows how to use a concordance.

Day
Acts 1:2    the  day                 g2250     á¼¡Î¼á½³ÏÎ± hÄ“mera
Acts 1:12  day's  journey         g2192     á¼”χω echō
* BTW - this rendering of "day" is preceded by "sabbaton" so you would have to say a day's day's journey if your translation is to be believed.
Acts 1:22 that  same  day         g2250     á¼¡Î¼á½³ÏÎ± hÄ“mera

I can go on.

Here's every occurrence of the English rendering of day: http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=day&t=KJV&cscs=Act

Sabbaton means "sabbath". It occurs 68 times. You would have to re-translate 59 occurrences of sabbath to fit your contortion.

[/quote]Solomon did quite a few things he shouldn't have done and they serve as examples of what can happen when one turns their heart from God.[/quote]
Happy Ishtar Easter


You are evidently unaware that there are many studies on just this subject.
You're evidently unaware of what I'm aware of.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2010, 10:30:43 AM »
No you didn't not.

I'm reporting what I'm seeing.  I also consulted two commentaries on that passage and a reference book on the Book of Acts and none of them claim that "Upon the first day of the week" is anything but an accurate translation.  I'm satisfied.

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Happy Ishtar Easter.

I don't celebrate Easter as a religious holiday.

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Because third world peasant labor is a good thing.