Author Topic: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?  (Read 9126 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Javelin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
  • Reputation: +1/-4
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2010, 05:17:14 PM »
Javelin:

What about replacing private investment banks with public institutions modeled on the State Bank of North Dakota or a commercial banking model like the Commonwealth Bank of Australia?

A Democratic contender for governor of Florida wants to create a Bank of the State of Florida (BSF) "...that would make loans to Floridians at much lower interest rates than they are getting now..."

"For $100 in deposits, a bank can create $900 in new money by making loans. So, the BSF can pay 6 percent for CDs, and make mortgage loans at 2 percent. For $6 per year in interest paid out, the BSF can earn $18 by lending $900 at 2 percent for mortgages."

Dr. Farid Khavari is also proposing 6 percent credit card rates.

Would it fly?

Your entire concept will be a complete failure.  While it sounds great in concept, over time it will become a monster that consumes the wealth of those that produce it.  Perhaps you should read more of Thomas Jefferson rather than Marx.

I understand your plight and your toting of North Dakota.  Yet your fail to see the full construct, timing, implications and current trajectory of what is taking place.  I would say much more but it would take a 100 page document to explain how the failure will even be greater than what we face now.  Run away, at full speed!  Socialist ideas may sound great but lack in all true application and history proves this statement right time and time again without error or refute.  
 

Quote
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
-= Thomas Jefferson 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826), Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802)

While Jeffersons dealing with private banks having too much power, even with them having competition, its too much power.  How do you in your right mind believe that a total government bank would be any better whatsoever?  Is that even logical?  The mess will be a nightmare beyond comprehension.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 05:20:08 PM by Javelin »

Offline georgephillip

  • Banned
  • Just Off Probation
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Reputation: +0/-67
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 04:54:33 AM »
Javelin:

James Stivers, a Republican candidate for State Senate in Idaho, may be one of the first indications of a political shift among grassroots Republicans. He's calling for a State Bank to fill state coffers and protect the local economy.

Stivers: "An important part of sovereignty is monetary authority. Currently, banks are allowed to multiply many times over the tax receipts deposited in their institutions. This special privilege is partially responsible for the 'sucking sound' in our local economies, as regional banks send their assets to central banks that are playing the derivatives markets of the world."

Anything here you would agree with?

How about Stivers's thoughts on inflation?

"Inflation is caused by the secret tax of the banking industry in which lenders use the multiplier effect to the benefit of their cronies. This secret tax takes the form of a decline in the value of the dollar and results in higher prices. Wages never keep up with this process because its very purpose is to extract wealth from the wage earners to support the privileged classes (and their Useful Idiots) who curry the favor of lenders. A state bank would restore this privilege to the people in a public trust and give us the opportunity to back our deposits with the wealth from our public lands."

Marx saw Capitalism as clearly as anyone who has ever lived.
In particular, he saw what Capitalism becomes after it has successfully emasculated government.


Offline Rick

  • Crazy old man
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 686
  • Reputation: +48/-9
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 08:47:46 AM »
"multiplier effect"?
"extract wealth from the wage earners"

This is no Republican I know.

"A state bank would restore this privilege to the people in a public trust and give us the opportunity to back our deposits with the wealth from our public lands."

But you can't trust the government, they haven't done anything right yet.

Or

Who is going to run this "public trust" and what sort of elitist are we making?

Offline Javelin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
  • Reputation: +1/-4
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2010, 05:58:35 PM »
Javelin:

James Stivers, a Republican candidate for State Senate in Idaho, may be one of the first indications of a political shift among grassroots Republicans. He's calling for a State Bank to fill state coffers and protect the local economy.

Stivers: "An important part of sovereignty is monetary authority. Currently, banks are allowed to multiply many times over the tax receipts deposited in their institutions. This special privilege is partially responsible for the 'sucking sound' in our local economies, as regional banks send their assets to central banks that are playing the derivatives markets of the world."

Anything here you would agree with?

How about Stivers's thoughts on inflation?

"Inflation is caused by the secret tax of the banking industry in which lenders use the multiplier effect to the benefit of their cronies. This secret tax takes the form of a decline in the value of the dollar and results in higher prices. Wages never keep up with this process because its very purpose is to extract wealth from the wage earners to support the privileged classes (and their Useful Idiots) who curry the favor of lenders. A state bank would restore this privilege to the people in a public trust and give us the opportunity to back our deposits with the wealth from our public lands."

Marx saw Capitalism as clearly as anyone who has ever lived.
In particular, he saw what Capitalism becomes after it has successfully emasculated government.



Edit in:  I am not a Republican just an fyi note.  I am a Constitutionalist.  You will never find anyone more right than me.  In truth if you want to know more of my ideals I also am a Three Percenter.  You may want to look that up so when you delve into the political ideas at least you know where I am at.

fHoly crap.... where to begin...  First of all, no I do not agree with anything you have presented whatsoever.  

Secondly, allow for me to offer you a non political book (they dis all parties and politicians and show the truth) its called "Empire of Debt" by Bill Bonner.  Forget the socialist garbage that led to the downfall of so many people and the deaths of millions.

Your blending political theory with market fundamentals and it doesnt work period.  Want proof?  Try day trading on theory, for that matter even many fundamentals and see what happens, you will lose your shirt.  You have a serious disparity in your thinking from moving from theory to application.

In truth the solution is simple.  No government intervention.... get rid of it.  

Back to fundamentals.  Inflation is not caused in any way from how it was stated within your quote.  Inflation can be influenced by many things but it is at its core derived by the value of a currency to what it can buy ie. assets or commodities.  What causes inflation is piss poor monetary policy.  What causes piss poor monetary policy?  More government.  I have heard all the democrat and republicans screaming about the crying babies in the cold that had no homes and then they build this idea that the American dream is to own a home so then they force banks into shady lending practices.  THIS IS WHAT CAUSES PROBLEMS!!!

When the government becomes a player within a market rather than a buffer, all hell breaks loose.






Let me put it to you this way.  Markets do not care what political color you are, but they will make you pay dearly for it.  True economics cannot be controlled and anyone who has spent real time making money in the markets has seen how nasty a revolt can be.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:01:50 PM by Javelin »

Offline georgephillip

  • Banned
  • Just Off Probation
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Reputation: +0/-67
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2010, 05:49:42 AM »
Javelin:

Thanks for the "Empire of Debt" tip.
I will check it out.

If you have time please look at Ellen Brown's Web of Debt Blog.
There appear to be many points of agreement regarding what some call "debt slavery" among left and right in this country.

When you say "No government intervention...get rid of it." some might interpret that as a call to privatize the US Treasury Department or even the entire Executive Branch. I share your distrust of monopolies whether of commodities or stocks or violence, but I don't see how replacing "one person:one vote" with "one share:one vote makes us any "freer."

Regarding the relations between inflation and monetary policy, hasn't the Federal Reserve managed monetary policy since 1913? One of those points of agreement I mentioned earlier is that the US Dollar has lost 95% of its value during that time.

Is the Fed part of the US Government? Or Wall Street?

This goes to a first principle of markets.
Are markets natural forces like gravity?
Or social constructs like government?

Offline georgephillip

  • Banned
  • Just Off Probation
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Reputation: +0/-67
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2010, 06:09:06 AM »
Ranger Rick:

There are a lot of devils hiding in the details of "...expanding the role of Idaho's Bond Bank authority into a full-fledged state bank."

No doubt new elites will be created and some of them will seek to expand their influence and wealth.

All I'm trying to say is that as long as private property exists (which has always sounded like a good idea to me) some form of government will be required.

The current version is bad enough. Particularly over the last thirty years, Republicans AND Democrats have taken turns shafting 90+% of Americans.

I believe there's something far worse hiding in the weeds and that is the corporations that have grown up around the private banks who have assumed control of American monetary policy.

Offline Javelin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
  • Reputation: +1/-4
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2010, 09:52:54 PM »
Javelin:

Thanks for the "Empire of Debt" tip.
I will check it out.

If you have time please look at Ellen Brown's Web of Debt Blog.
There appear to be many points of agreement regarding what some call "debt slavery" among left and right in this country.

When you say "No government intervention...get rid of it." some might interpret that as a call to privatize the US Treasury Department or even the entire Executive Branch. I share your distrust of monopolies whether of commodities or stocks or violence, but I don't see how replacing "one person:one vote" with "one share:one vote makes us any "freer."

Regarding the relations between inflation and monetary policy, hasn't the Federal Reserve managed monetary policy since 1913? One of those points of agreement I mentioned earlier is that the US Dollar has lost 95% of its value during that time.

Is the Fed part of the US Government? Or Wall Street?

This goes to a first principle of markets.
Are markets natural forces like gravity?
Or social constructs like government?

I am going to move backwards in responses to your post:

Markets are more like natural forces similar to if you will "gravity".  This is why they cannot be controlled, period.  Control in other forms also fail and it has been proven within this collapse.  Here we have a combination of government control/intervention which forced the hands of banks to co-operate with additional control/intervention especially in the finance and housing markets.  Furthermore we see where greed kicked in from the markets (stocks,futures,banks and such) all the way down to the consumer utilizing liar loans.  Add in shady practices of inflating home values to create additional money for 2nd mortgages to create alternative financing options for individuals and the manipulation as you can see escalated out of control.

Essentially, if the markets were a free market this would have never been allowed to perpetuate itself.  You would argue that we have existed under a free market system.  I argue that the moment the government entered into the marketplace as a player rather than a buffer the natural forces of the markets have been thrown out of balance.

Within a free market with no government interference a market will correct itself rather quickly and at times violently.  Yet even with a sudden crash the correction would often be rather fast allowing for a very short recession, much shorter than what we have experienced over the past decades. 

If you will look back at the year 1919 and 1920.  The government in those years realized the problems they caused, backed out and allowed natural forces to occur.  When they did they immediately turned a market around that posted numbers equally as significant as the great depression at its worst in the early 1930's.  The proof is within history.

Yes the Fed Reserve has managed monetary policy since 1913 and if you look at history this is not the first time.  It was also done in the early 1800's until the president Andrew Jackson came along and abolished the concept doing away with national banks.  Within those times they also suffered from government interference via a governmental control of the market systems of that time. 

The Fed should not even exist period yet due to our present condition this would be virtually impossible to abolish as Andrew Jackson did in his day.  We are too deep in the doo doo if you will to even think about it.  The best that we could do at this point is to step by step strip away the power of the Fed and remove the Federal governments ability to manipulate the Fed.  In essence allow it to become more privatized over time until it can be removed completely.  In real terms you and I both know this will never happen unless a real revolution were to take place. 

The system is far too gone and used up for any kind of recovery.  It will literally crash and burn within a currency crisis and I am afraid a more sinister and evil monster will emerge.  I understand that you are more socialistic in your thinking and beliefs.  Yet when one looks at history you must look at where that road has consistently led to.  How are we any more special, different or unique that we cannot meet that same fate?  Despite your socialistic beliefs, I seriously doubt you would vote for tyranny and oppression.

I do understand your ideas of trying to make the world better, yet when it comes into real world practice, there is a reason why our founding fathers instituted what they did.  They themselves saw first hand what communism or socialism was like for in their time it was watered down into what was called a monarchy.

Offline georgephillip

  • Banned
  • Just Off Probation
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Reputation: +0/-67
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2010, 01:50:38 PM »
"The system is too far gone and used up for any kind of recovery. It will literally crash and burn within a currency crisis and I am afraid a sinister and more evil monster will evolve."

Me, too.

Professor Carroll Quigley, Bill Clinton's mentor at Georgetown and an insider once groomed by international bankers, wrote in his book Tragedy and Hope in 1966 about "(T)he powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole.

"This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences."

If that was the plan since at least 1966, do you see any hope for America that doesn't require elected legislators taking back the power to create money from a private banking elite?

Offline Javelin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
  • Reputation: +1/-4
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2010, 11:17:55 PM »

Professor Carroll Quigley, Bill Clinton's mentor at Georgetown and an insider once groomed by international bankers, wrote in his book Tragedy and Hope in 1966 about "(T)he powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole.

"This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences."

If that was the plan since at least 1966, do you see any hope for America that doesn't require elected legislators taking back the power to create money from a private banking elite?

Do you know why the design in the early cold war era was to tie all economies together?  I actually learned this from Glenn Becks show and did my own homework on it and hes right lol.  Its not too often I learn something new from Beck but he has a few really good nuggets once in a while.  The purpose for bringing the world economies together was to prevent nuclear and or large scale wars.  If another Hitler came along or some nut in the Soviet Union tried to launch a nuke the chaos that ensued economically would destroy the would be destroyer of the world.  Brilliant right?  Well until it bites us in the butt in the current crisis we are in.

Anyway to answer your question about the elected legislators taking back power to create money.....  I prefer to look at it differently than you do as in I do not consider there to be a private banking elite within a true free economy.  The elite are created when they buy politicians (both R and D) and then we have the elite that we have ended up with today.  But to answer you directly, no I so not see how its possible at this point.

If we could erase the debt, well at least get close, we could go back to a backed currency where at least the money could not be printed like toilet paper.  That would at least constrain the USA from being stupid.  Yet with the current structure of the international markets it really makes that whole idea impossible.  Our hands are in the back pockets of Asia and Europe just as their hands are in our back pockets.  People look at the national debt as the only thing we have to cover.  Nope, sorry theres a lot more.  If we begin to decline there are multi billions in Euro and Yuan that are invested into the USA.  If they pull their money or demand reimbursement and perhaps for us to pay down some of our debt we couldnt even do that much less cover the whole difference by trying to back that much money by gold.  A sheer impossibility.

The current trajectory is currency crisis.  As much as I hate to admit it, the only real solution would be similar to Germany back in the day.  Back the currency by land under a new currency, or worse, we could end up in a multi national currency.  That is the truth behind where we are headed that both parties cannot see or even begin to realize.  That is assuming we get that far without slipping into a chaos like civil war.

This is NOT a normal recession.  This is beyond depression.  This is Rome all over again.

Offline georgephillip

  • Banned
  • Just Off Probation
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Reputation: +0/-67
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2010, 08:37:31 AM »
Javelin:

From Tuesday, March 9, 2010 "Washington's Blog">6 Theories on Why the Stock Marker has Rallied.

1. Dumb Money, i.e., the Jim Cramer legions.

2. Temporary Juice: quantitative easing, low interest rates, "Wall of Money" proponents.

3. The Situation is Inflation: stocks tend to perform well during periods of serious inflation.

The final three possibilities explored by this post appear to me to suggest serious fraud among public and private elites.

4. Machines Run Amok: "Tyler Durden explains that all the stock market gains have occurred after hours when mystery buyers purchase stock futures in low volume environments." Another strategist for Trim Tabs Investment Research said last month: "We've never seen this before-such a huge rally, and the little guy is out." Are momentum chasing algorithms doing the buying?

5. Fed Futures? Is the "government" directly fueling the market.

6. Fraud Central (my favorite) Karl Denninger's belief that the market has rallied "due to the systematic fraudulent overvaluation of assets."

I think what's coming will make Rome look progressive. 


Offline Javelin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
  • Reputation: +1/-4
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2010, 10:31:28 AM »
Javelin:

From Tuesday, March 9, 2010 "Washington's Blog">6 Theories on Why the Stock Marker has Rallied.

1. Dumb Money, i.e., the Jim Cramer legions.

2. Temporary Juice: quantitative easing, low interest rates, "Wall of Money" proponents.

3. The Situation is Inflation: stocks tend to perform well during periods of serious inflation.

The final three possibilities explored by this post appear to me to suggest serious fraud among public and private elites.

4. Machines Run Amok: "Tyler Durden explains that all the stock market gains have occurred after hours when mystery buyers purchase stock futures in low volume environments." Another strategist for Trim Tabs Investment Research said last month: "We've never seen this before-such a huge rally, and the little guy is out." Are momentum chasing algorithms doing the buying?

5. Fed Futures? Is the "government" directly fueling the market.

6. Fraud Central (my favorite) Karl Denninger's belief that the market has rallied "due to the systematic fraudulent overvaluation of assets."

I think what's coming will make Rome look progressive. 



My bet is on numbers 1-3 and then also number 5.  Number 6 also has some validity in that it is an influence from the past and will be part of the fallout later but it does not have any direct impact on the markets current upswing.

Yep, whats coming will make Rome look like a pop-sickle stand on a summer day.  One of the major reasons is not just the manipulation that has taken place but on our local levels, we are not the same people we used to be.  How many people have gardens?  A garden is not even enough to sustain oneself considering you need about an acre of crops for say a family of four and two of the four would have to be small children.  We do not know how to operate inside of loss of communication and especially if we lose electricity.  Even if we have power who could afford it?  How many people still have wood burning fireplaces or wood burning stoves in their homes?  How many people have more than 3 to 5 days supply of food at home?  Not many.

I remember my great grandmother telling me stories about the great depression before she died.  I was a kid then but I remember the stories well.  We dont have what it takes to live like that again.  We have forgotten or failed to learn the knowledge they had then due to modern implements making life too easy for us.  For example, how many people under the age of 40 know how to can food?  Lol... and all I am talking about so far is just simply living and existing on a lesser level than now.  That speaks nothing of the political implications or numerous other factors that can influence us.  It will be hell to live through.

Offline georgephillip

  • Banned
  • Just Off Probation
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Reputation: +0/-67
Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2010, 05:43:38 PM »
Javelin:

I'm over 60, and I couldn't can food if my life depended on it. Literally.

I too heard stories like those your great-grandmother told; however, it was from my parents that I was first introduced to the Great Depression.

As a child, my dad migrated with his family from Oklahoma during the worst of the Dust Bowl days. Many nights dinner depended on dad or one of his brothers shooting a rabbit big enough for everyone to share.

This time..I don't think there will be enough rabbits to go around.