Author Topic: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?  (Read 12368 times)

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Offline 5412

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Hi,

I subscribe to Ed Steer's Gold and Silver Report Daily, it is part of the Casey Research group.  Below is a couple of paragraphs from today's report.

Fundamentally what is happening is every time gold and silver stage a rally, a few firms, predominatley JP Morgan intercede and continue to short the rally in an attempt to keep the prices down.  The CFTC is supposed to oversee the market and repeated  (I mean thousands) of letters, phone calls, emails etc. to get them to do their job has so far been ignored by the government.  I have also seen estimates that if the price were to be allowed to float in a free market that the price of gold and silver would double or more.  Right now the short positions held by "8 or fewer" banks is in excess of one year's production for each metal.

When the lid comes off this one look for metals to shoot up and inflation to go through the roof, with oil not far behind.

regards,
5412


The Commitment of Traders Report [for positions held at the close of trading on Tuesday, January 26th] was a sight to behold, as the bullion banks reduced their net short position in silver by a very large 6,979 contracts. The did this by covering 4,692 short positions and by adding 2,287 contracts to their long position... which I knew they were doing to cover their tracks. [Add to that the 2,438 contract decline from Thursday... and silver's o.i. dropped quite a bit this week.] Not including Thursday's o.i. decline, the net short position in silver is down to 54,711 contracts... 273.6 million ounces.

To give you an idea of how concentrated the positions of the '4 or less' or '8 or less' bullion banks are in silver... the '4 or less' bullion banks are short 294.1 million ounces and the '8 or less' bullion banks are short 340.3 million ounces of silver. These amounts represent 107.5% and 124.4% of the net short position. What this means in plain English is that if the '4 or less' and '8 or less' bullion banks weren't there as the shorts of last resort... and what I call 'not-for-profit sellers'... the price of silver would explode to the outer edges of the known universe.

In gold [for the week that was] the bullion banks decreased their net short position by a respectable 25,029 contracts. This they did by covering 22,734 shorts and buying 2,295 longs. [Plus they've improved their net short position another 29,000 contracts on Wednesday and Thursday as well!] Not including Wednesday and Thursday, the gold net short position is down to 248,618 contracts... or 24.9 million ounces of gold. [And is down to 22.0 million ounces if you take out Wednesday's and Thursday's o.i. decline.]

Using the actual COT numbers, the '4 or less' and '8 or less' bullion banks in gold are short 20.4 and 25.1 million ounces of gold respectively. With the net short position being 24.9 million ounces... the '8 or less' bullion banks are basically short a bit more than the entire net short position. If they weren't there, the Commercial category of the COT report would be market neutral.

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 06:34:51 AM »
5412:

Thanks for the information. While I lack the background in Economics to fully appreciate what you reveal, the power of monopolists (shorts of last resort) to manipulate "free markets" seems pretty hard to miss.

With regard to manipulation of markets by elite players, government and private, I would like to know your thoughts on the Federal Reserve as an "Island of Central Planning" in our free market economy?

If it's true in normal times the Fed and not the market decides what the short-term interest rate is and this rate is perhaps the key price in our economy in the sense it's the price we trade wealth in the present for wealth in the future, does that mean the short-term interest rate is a centrally planned and administered price?

See: "Republic of the Central Bank" by J. Bradford Delong @American Prospect 10/27/08

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 09:19:50 AM »
Hi,

I subscribe to Ed Steer's Gold and Silver Report Daily, it is part of the Casey Research group.  Below is a couple of paragraphs from today's report.

Fundamentally what is happening is every time gold and silver stage a rally, a few firms, predominatley JP Morgan intercede and continue to short the rally in an attempt to keep the prices down.  The CFTC is supposed to oversee the market and repeated  (I mean thousands) of letters, phone calls, emails etc. to get them to do their job has so far been ignored by the government.  I have also seen estimates that if the price were to be allowed to float in a free market that the price of gold and silver would double or more.  Right now the short positions held by "8 or fewer" banks is in excess of one year's production for each metal.

When the lid comes off this one look for metals to shoot up and inflation to go through the roof, with oil not far behind.

regards,
5412

I have been watching this as well.  One of the major issues at the moment is the manipulation that is taking place within markets when the government was never meant to be a "player" in the market.  The crazy thing is that they actually believe they can get away with it.  Things like this never end well and its quite scary to think of what the end outcome will be. 

Offline NHSparky

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 09:31:38 AM »
While I lack the background in Economics to fully appreciate what you reveal

And yet that doesn't seem to stop you from wasting bandwidth in other threads.
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline Lacarnut

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 10:38:01 AM »
Thanks for the info. Reminds me of the Hunt's manipulating the silver market many years ago. I guess it's ok as long as a government sponsored bank is doing it.  :censored: I still think gold, silver, other metals and commodities will increase in value in the long run. Sure beats a 1.4% M.M. account.

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 08:45:17 AM »
NH Sparky:

Do you believe the Fed manipulates America's free market?

Offline NHSparky

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 10:56:37 AM »
NH Sparky:

Do you believe the Fed manipulates America's free market?

I believe they have influence, but that the ultimate manipulation rests with those who react to what the Fed says rather than does.  Certainly government spending has some influence, but not nearly as much as socialist-leaning economies such as those in the EU.
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 06:41:58 AM »
NH Sparky,

The working assumption at the Fed and Treasury Dept seems to be that the American economy can not recover without enriching Wall Street by increasing the level of debt nation-wide.

An alternative view is the economy needs to recover from the "cure" of the mushrooming debt overhead that both Bush and Obama have been pushing.

Not more credit, but a write-down on the debts banks have imposed on American families, businesses, states, localities, real estate, and the federal government itself.

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 10:20:44 AM »
NH Sparky,

The working assumption at the Fed and Treasury Dept seems to be that the American economy can not recover without enriching Wall Street by increasing the level of debt nation-wide.

An alternative view is the economy needs to recover from the "cure" of the mushrooming debt overhead that both Bush and Obama have been pushing.

Not more credit, but a write-down on the debts banks have imposed on American families, businesses, states, localities, real estate, and the federal government itself.

I have read some of your posts.  I mean no offense.  But I see a lot of inexperience showing through.  I have already walked the path and I have made my living from investing.  I have two homes overseas and my home in the USA.  I am by no means an amateur though once you have spent some time in the markets you realize that tomorrow morning can make you look like one despite how much you know.

I really do not think you understand the "write-down" process.  It reminds me of a guy I once knew that believed once something was written off then it no longer existed and was of no concern.  Trouble was he was dirt poor and couldnt even finance a used car so he had no idea of what a write down was.  

I understand that you want to look forward and thats fine we all must make our decisions.  Yet I have closed out my international trading accounts, my US based platform and consolidated into physical gold/silver and other physical assets that are non metal based.  I have friends that have been doing this for a lot longer than I have and herald from the day Warren Buffet got started.  When I see them flinch, it scares the hell out of me.  There is a very real reason to be afraid because this whole mess is being help up with nothing but hope.  

My point here is educate yourself and beware.  Diversify into something physical, dont let yourself get caught with your pants down.  When this thing does come down, its game over.  Estimated time line I have been hearing is 12 to 24 months and the depicted problems we will face could usher in a new Dark Age.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 10:23:14 AM by Javelin »

Offline Lacarnut

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 12:25:03 PM »
I understand that you want to look forward and thats fine we all must make our decisions.  Yet I have closed out my international trading accounts, my US based platform and consolidated into physical gold/silver and other physical assets that are non metal based.  I have friends that have been doing this for a lot longer than I have and herald from the day Warren Buffet got started.  When I see them flinch, it scares the hell out of me.  There is a very real reason to be afraid because this whole mess is being help up with nothing but hope.  

My point here is educate yourself and beware.  Diversify into something physical, dont let yourself get caught with your pants down.  When this thing does come down, its game over.  Estimated time line I have been hearing is 12 to 24 months and the depicted problems we will face could usher in a new Dark Age.

I hate to say it but I think you are right on target. Soros just recently purchases several hundred million in gold.   So he thinks it is going up. I am not going to put my eggs all in one basket though. I have around 10% in gold and siver. Diversification in this market is also  dangerous. For example, the wise investor in the past would allocate between classes. That will not help in a 1000 point crash which I think is on the horizon.

Real estate in depressed areas such as south FL and the Carribean look like a good bet. With the ARM's re-setting, the housing market will get worse. Later in the year will be the time to buy. Cash is king right now.

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 06:01:40 PM »
Javelin:

Thanks for your candor and no offense taken. I am inexperienced, at least, when it comes to the workings of  Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate.

Do you believe it's accurate to say that American manufacturing of goods and services has been out-sourced over the last 30 years to such an extent that today, the miracle of compound interest can produce debt more efficiently than America can produce jobs?

Offline Lacarnut

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 07:43:05 PM »
Javelin:

Thanks for your candor and no offense taken. I am inexperienced, at least, when it comes to the workings of  Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate.

Do you believe it's accurate to say that American manufacturing of goods and services has been out-sourced over the last 30 years to such an extent that today, the miracle of compound interest can produce debt more efficiently than America can produce jobs?

The USA is still the largest manufacturer of goods in the world as of 2008 by a wide margin.

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 07:52:20 PM »
Javelin:

Thanks for your candor and no offense taken. I am inexperienced, at least, when it comes to the workings of  Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate.

Do you believe it's accurate to say that American manufacturing of goods and services has been out-sourced over the last 30 years to such an extent that today, the miracle of compound interest can produce debt more efficiently than America can produce jobs?

No doubt that American jobs of all kinds, especially manufacturing, have been outsourced to the point that it has caused irreversible damage.  Before you can look at the issue of compound interest, and in part your question is partially a trick question, you have to look at another factor.

Productivity is the key, not the production of jobs.  Productivity can be measured in different forms.  In the past two decades the key focus of productivity is Gross/Net in vs outgo.  Its become a numbers game rather than the true measure of asset verses liability.  People looked at owning a home as being an asset, when in truth unless it is used for investment purposes, it is a liability.  A home does not produce any real productive capacity despite the numbers until the economic fallout showing that it produced "productivity".

So to answer your question, there is no longer any real productive capacity within the United States in that we are no longer producing assets nor acquiring assets but instead have a very long balance sheet of liabilities.  As an example, compare us to China where the are acquiring every asset they can get their hands on: oil fields, diamond mines, gold/silver mines, iron mines and now they have the production ability through manufacturing that we built for them via our outsourcing and loan back to us the dollars we financed them with.  

We cannot produce the jobs in order to pay the balance sheet, period.  In order to produce those jobs and assets we now need to compete with a man in China that can work at a wage of 3 dollars per hour or day and those companies there have no compensation plans to worry about.  We cannot outproduce them and we cannot do it at that price.  I am sorry but business is not patriotism and made in the USA while I love it, those companies will either be forced to outsource like briggs and stratton has or they will go out of business.

When you look at the debt interest if your productivity cannot outproduce the debt, it is not a measure of numbers on a balance sheet or theoretical potential.  It comes down to the competitive ability of a people vs people in different nations.  In theory would it be possible to pay off the debt?  Sure.  In reality will it happen, no.  Its quite impossible just as us expecting Obama to resign tomorrow morning and decide to shut down the Federal Government and return all rights back to the States.  Could it happen in theory, sure.  Will it happen, no.  Couple this issue with the fact that our governments (State and Federal) refuse to curtail spending due to "programs" deemed too important and then the desired programs they wish to impliment, there will be no trend change and continued spending.  Through 2010 there will be more damage and 2009 was enough alone to sink us.  Even with the elections this year in congress there will not be enough change to save us.  2012 will come too late and the needed policies to save us should have been enacted years ago.  Too little, too late.

I always look to the most likely outcome based upon current trends to determine future trends.  A friend of mine in the Philippines is a CEO of a major corporation there.  He mentioned to me that they are finding the American influence weakening so dramatically in their sectors that they have been forced to do business with China.  We can no longer compete.  The fallout in the USA is affecting nations around the world.  In the Philippines a major Nike plant has laid off a huge percentage of its workforce and the only jobs coming into the country are in support of countries like Singapore, Malaysia, China and supporting roles such as IT and call centers.  There is a demand for Manderin speaking people emerging over English speaking.  

The trends speak for themselves and we can only measure where we are going by where we are and the capacity we hold on a competitive level.  In short, we dont have it.

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 07:56:29 PM »
The USA is still the largest manufacturer of goods in the world as of 2008 by a wide margin.

This is not necessarily true.  What I mean is, when an American company sports a made in China tag it still counts as a manufactured good for us.  The truth is, where does the money go?  Furthermore, we finance the production ability of China, they retain the plants and manufacturing ability despite whatever happens.  Then they also copy and modify our products and trade them with their partners.  

Its not a true apples to apples comparison when you look at the numbers.  We spend, they benefit, not a good scenario.

The next problem with this thinking is that your speaking of production of goods when we should be looking at the production of assets or acquisition of assets.  Goods equals the need for spending which deals with wealth depletion.  Assets lead to wealth building.  In order for us to maintain we need to produce more goods and right now people are not buying as they used to.  Not only are they not buying, they cannot buy.  We can produce goods until surpluses build and fund it with more Federal money if we wish.  Yet until real asset creation comes into the picture to build wealth, even if only by a simple savings account for the common individual, there will be no recovery whatsoever.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 08:13:26 PM by Javelin »

Offline Lacarnut

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 08:14:49 PM »
This is not necessarily true.  What I mean is, when an American company sports a made in China tag it still counts as a manufactured good for us.  The truth is, where does the money go?  Furthermore, we finance the production ability of China, they retain the plants and manufacturing ability despite whatever happens.  Then they also copy and modify our products and trade them with their partners. 

Its not a true apples to apples comparison when you look at the numbers.  We spend, they benefit, not a good scenario.

I just googled it and came up with that info. However, would not the same thing be true if foreign companies invest in the USA. I understand it is not happening to that extent with China but Japan has invested a great deal in this country.

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2010, 08:38:21 PM »
I just googled it and came up with that info. However, would not the same thing be true if foreign companies invest in the USA. I understand it is not happening to that extent with China but Japan has invested a great deal in this country.

Yes it is true if you reverse the concept and companies from overseas.  The majority of business I believe, have not confirmed, comes from Europe more so than Asia.  But that is not what is so important as the ratio at which it happens.  To use an example lets take the SouthEast of the USA.  A major industry pre 1990 was textiles.  Now try to find a job in that industry in the SouthEast, you cannot.  A major problem is that various sectors have been practically eliminated via outsourcing.  Its a vast difference from what is coming into the USA.

Again though, it must be measured by assets to liabilities.  Its not enough to just have a job producing an income that in turn produces spending into our economy.  That is what got us here to begin with.  Its about as insane to expect that to work as creating government jobs and expecting that to fix the problems as Obama is attempting at this very moment.

Another major blow is the banks.  They (depending on which one) either cannot lend based on their money situation or the fact they have to follow more stringent rules or they refuse to because they can make so much more money by lending to the Federal government.  By comparison to any other recession we have had, including the great depression, this is the worst yet and its a killer.  In the Great Depression we has surpluses and the American people were not in debt to the tune of nearly 14 trillion dollars.  Credit Cards did not exist then and people lived a much simpler life on a pay as you go basis.  We also had a manufacturing capacity that we no longer have.  Why we do not feel the damage yet is due to the printed money that has been poured into the banks to prop us up.  When and if the government forces these banks to lend all of this money instead of hold it, that money then gains what is called velocity.  Once it is within the marketplace rather than on a balance sheet that will be added inflation on top of the fact that the government has now suppressed the markets (asset side ie: gold, silver) and floated other sectors.  When the piper comes to be paid, and he will do not doubt it, we cannot cover the difference.

Offline Lacarnut

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 10:37:06 PM »

Another major blow is the banks.  They (depending on which one) either cannot lend based on their money situation or the fact they have to follow more stringent rules or they refuse to because they can make so much more money by lending to the Federal government.  By comparison to any other recession we have had, including the great depression, this is the worst yet and its a killer.  In the Great Depression we has surpluses and the American people were not in debt to the tune of nearly 14 trillion dollars.  Credit Cards did not exist then and people lived a much simpler life on a pay as you go basis.  We also had a manufacturing capacity that we no longer have.  Why we do not feel the damage yet is due to the printed money that has been poured into the banks to prop us up.  When and if the government forces these banks to lend all of this money instead of hold it, that money then gains what is called velocity.  Once it is within the marketplace rather than on a balance sheet that will be added inflation on top of the fact that the government has now suppressed the markets (asset side ie: gold, silver) and floated other sectors.  When the piper comes to be paid, and he will do not doubt it, we cannot cover the difference.
From what I have read is that the banks are willing to lend. There are just not that many takers and that in the last 8 months business bank loans have dropped every month. Without expansion, the economy is going to sink back into another recession in my opinion. Companies are so gun shy because they don't know what the government is going to do them in the form of increased taxes from health care, energy and new regulations. This moron in the WH thinks that gov. is the answer. God help us. 

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2010, 08:26:09 AM »
Tell me if the following quote from Noam Chomsky makes sense to you:

"The war against working people should be understood to be a real war...Specifically in the US, which happens to have a highly class-conscious business class...And they have long seen themselves as fighting a bitter class war, except they don't want anybody else to know about it."

Offline Carl

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2010, 08:38:08 AM »
Sorry dude but as far as I am concerned if Noam Chomsky says the sun will rise in the east I would get the second opinion of an intelligent person before I believed it.

Having said that why don`t you research Chomsky a bit...you will find the great icon of the left is nothing but a complete hypocrite.

His statement is an idiocy and attempts to instill a bitter envy in folks by ascribing it to others.
In essence.."See,you should hate them because I say they hate you.
Follow me and give me power and I will lead you to victory".
The same ole same ole propaganda.
Only a fool or weak mind falls for it.

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2010, 04:59:32 PM »
Sorry dude but as far as I am concerned if Noam Chomsky says the sun will rise in the east I would get the second opinion of an intelligent person before I believed it.

Having said that why don`t you research Chomsky a bit...you will find the great icon of the left is nothing but a complete hypocrite.

His statement is an idiocy and attempts to instill a bitter envy in folks by ascribing it to others.
In essence.."See,you should hate them because I say they hate you.
Follow me and give me power and I will lead you to victory".
The same ole same ole propaganda.
Only a fool or weak mind falls for it.

I am interested in seeing this, it should be required for any conservative. http://www.generationzeromovie.com/

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2010, 08:42:01 PM »
Javelin:

Paul Craig Roberts is a former editor of the Wall Street Journal and assistant secretary of the US Treasury under Reagan. Roberts has a piece at CounterPunch (subscription edition) titled "How the Economy was Lost" (sorry, I'm not yet capable of inserting hyperlinks...I am working on it.)

Paul starts with a quote from The Collapse of British Power by Correlli Barnett: "The fundamental factor in the total strategy of a nation lies in industrial and commercial performance, for it is this which determines power and wealth alike."

He then connects the British circumstance at the end of WWII with ours today: "Britain's influence died with its economy, and a former superpower became an American dependency."

"Whose dependents will Americans become?" (My emphasis)

We're told the US can have a superpower's economy even after " millions of good jobs that were the backbone of the middle-class are instead given to foreigners." Augmented by the collapse of world socialism and high-speed Internet, the "new economy" of the 1990s produced a steady increase of job losses until today one in five Americans is unemployed and "(t)here are no jobs for the unemployed."

"We pay for the import of our own companies' goods and services by transferring ownership to foreigners of American companies, real estate, bonds, and even toll-road revenues."

Roberts finishes with a thought Chomsky would approve of:

"In America nothing is important except profits. People don't count. Jobs for people don't count."

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2010, 10:45:43 PM »
Javelin:

Paul Craig Roberts is a former editor of the Wall Street Journal and assistant secretary of the US Treasury under Reagan. Roberts has a piece at CounterPunch (subscription edition) titled "How the Economy was Lost" (sorry, I'm not yet capable of inserting hyperlinks...I am working on it.)

Paul starts with a quote from The Collapse of British Power by Correlli Barnett: "The fundamental factor in the total strategy of a nation lies in industrial and commercial performance, for it is this which determines power and wealth alike."

He then connects the British circumstance at the end of WWII with ours today: "Britain's influence died with its economy, and a former superpower became an American dependency."

"Whose dependents will Americans become?" (My emphasis)

We're told the US can have a superpower's economy even after " millions of good jobs that were the backbone of the middle-class are instead given to foreigners." Augmented by the collapse of world socialism and high-speed Internet, the "new economy" of the 1990s produced a steady increase of job losses until today one in five Americans is unemployed and "(t)here are no jobs for the unemployed."

"We pay for the import of our own companies' goods and services by transferring ownership to foreigners of American companies, real estate, bonds, and even toll-road revenues."

Roberts finishes with a thought Chomsky would approve of:

"In America nothing is important except profits. People don't count. Jobs for people don't count."

Very powerful statement and I agree with all of it 100 percent. 

One other factor that not many people talk about that concerns me and it plays into the question where you added emphasis as to whos dependents will Americans become.  That is a difficult question to ponder, the first initial knee jerk reaction would be a response of China.  Yet things are much different now verses the WW2 era.  Globalization has changed everything.  If we consider that since the 1990's more so than any other decade was the birth of this globalization.  The internet and its abilities has allowed for the economies of the world to be tied together in a way that no one has ever imagined in history.  Why is this so important?

Remember the collapse of the housing sector?  The ripple effect was felt around the world and the bailouts were poured into the global economy from China to Europe and the USA.  The blow that it dealt to Europe can be seen now as many economies are on the brink of total collapse namely: Greece, France, Portugal, Spain, the UK.  The economies of the world are now so interdependent that if one fails, all follow in suit.  France depends on Greece, and Germany on France, Spain and Portugal on Germany, the UK on Germany, the USA depends on the UK for so much of our debt and China depends on the USA for consumers.  The very probability that any single collapse, especially when budgets around the globe are so strapped, can cause a systematic collapse that brings the next down is a real threat.  If any two or three in the EU zone go down the whole EU will sink.  If the USA goes much further down the rabbit hole China and the EU sink. 

There is far more at stake here than simply our economy.  After I worked in military intelligence I came away with the realization as to how sensitive our fragile world is and how intertwined we all are.  With the USA being the major food producer in the world, imagine a collapse where we can no longer produce like we have, or at all.  Inside of this a power struggle would emerge, not just for the soul of the USA in liberal vs conservative, but who globally controls the food basket. 

May God truly help us all, for we would be entering a modern Dark Age.

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 06:00:02 PM »
Javelin:

What happens if Goldman Sachs goes the way of Enron?

Porter Stansberry writing on The Daily Crux>"This is one of the biggest Wall Street Frauds Ever..." Thursday February 25, 2010:

"About three years ago, I saw Goldman Sachs reporting quarter after quarter of unbelievable results when all the other investment banks were hurting. I spent a lot of time looking at its numbers which didn't make any sense. It reminded me on Enron. It kept reporting bigger and bigger profits, but lost more money every year in cash. And its debt balances kept growing."

If Goldman insured all its subprime exposure via AIG, allowing it to book huge profits on its subprime investments because the bonds were insured, and Goldman actually bought this insurance on special CDOs it had put together and sold to its own clients, does that mean jail time for Goldman execs and the end of the firm?

If Goldman dies like Enron died, what happens to the EU?

What happens to the USA?

Offline Javelin

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 09:51:14 PM »
Javelin:

What happens if Goldman Sachs goes the way of Enron?

Porter Stansberry writing on The Daily Crux>"This is one of the biggest Wall Street Frauds Ever..." Thursday February 25, 2010:

"About three years ago, I saw Goldman Sachs reporting quarter after quarter of unbelievable results when all the other investment banks were hurting. I spent a lot of time looking at its numbers which didn't make any sense. It reminded me on Enron. It kept reporting bigger and bigger profits, but lost more money every year in cash. And its debt balances kept growing."

If Goldman insured all its subprime exposure via AIG, allowing it to book huge profits on its subprime investments because the bonds were insured, and Goldman actually bought this insurance on special CDOs it had put together and sold to its own clients, does that mean jail time for Goldman execs and the end of the firm?

If Goldman dies like Enron died, what happens to the EU?

What happens to the USA?

Imo, Goldman cannot go the way of Enron for one major reason, its the governments pet bank.  Look at how many of their people go to the Fed or other economic facets of the government.  They are essentially tied to the hip now.  If we tried to call the White House the switchboard could probably forward you to the CEO of Goldman who may have an office at the capitol building lol.

But, in the concept and theory of how your considering the situation, which is the way it should be then the rug should have been pulled out from under them last year.  If you remember Warren B. dumped a ton of his money into Goldman, and a few other names as well as the government.  I think part of Warrens deal was that he would not put money into Goldman unless the government did.  I do know for a fact that Goldman executives and the "owners" cannot sell past a certain percentage of shares without first notifying Warren and him giving approval or first right of action to sell before they do. 

Back to your question... if things were actually run the way things should be, then the fall of Goldman would cause the EU to fail and the US along with parts or certain sectors within China.  The real deal is that Goldman will fall when the Fed falls.  Yet if things were as they should be, the fall would mean that smaller banks, especially regional banks, would once again become the backbone of American industry.  This would not be a bad thing and it would in theory herald in a new age of independent American businessmen (this of course ignores the social, political, and geopolitical fallouts that would also be an obstacle to overcome).  The truth is though more than 100 years ago the United States got into the business of empire building.  So its sad to say that the CEO's past and present along with the execs that are on staff are well insulated from any criminal investigations.  Old man Bernie Madoff saw more of a prison cell than any of these guys will despite the fact that they all should be buried under the jail.

Over the last two years we saw a "too big to fail" campaign absorb these various banks and insurance companies by the Federal Government which essentially wiped clean any paper trail that we could hope to find.  There were a lot of shady things that took place and comments that came out from places like Bank of America when they did not want to be a part of any of this but were "threatened" to help bail out and then later were bailed out themselves.  The laundry list one day will be long and extensive as to who should be prosecuted and face jail time if people dont take to the streets in riots and hang them first.

Offline georgephillip

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Re: Think the markets are not being manipulated with government help?
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2010, 06:14:49 PM »
Javelin:

What about replacing private investment banks with public institutions modeled on the State Bank of North Dakota or a commercial banking model like the Commonwealth Bank of Australia?

A Democratic contender for governor of Florida wants to create a Bank of the State of Florida (BSF) "...that would make loans to Floridians at much lower interest rates than they are getting now..."

"For $100 in deposits, a bank can create $900 in new money by making loans. So, the BSF can pay 6 percent for CDs, and make mortgage loans at 2 percent. For $6 per year in interest paid out, the BSF can earn $18 by lending $900 at 2 percent for mortgages."

Dr. Farid Khavari is also proposing 6 percent credit card rates.

Would it fly?