Author Topic: Are Climategaters Still Lying?  (Read 15255 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23048
  • Reputation: +2232/-269
  • Voted Rookie-of-the-Year, 3 years running
Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« on: December 04, 2009, 05:27:23 PM »
Things that make you go, "Hm-m-m-m.."

Quote
One thing about “ClimateGate” nagging at the back of my mind is the absence of any discussion by ringleader Phil Jones (or others) of the remarkable, shocking discovery that Jones now claims he had that his precedessor destroyed the raw data in the 1980s.

That is the data that scientists have for years been seeking from Jones under the UK’s freedom of information law. Against numerous such requests he offered equally numerous excuses for refusing access culminating with the September 2009 claim – when it looked like he’d been cornered and had no excuses not to provide it to Prof. Ross McKitrick who met all of his long-stated qualifications – that in fact he’d lost it.

First, it does seem odd that Jones would so firmly and crisply articulate his many, very specific excuses for so many years about why he could not provide something that in fact they had, as he now tells it, lost. His refusals all clearly imply that a belief that he had it.

But where are the emails putting out the word, oh, snap, you guys aren’t gonna believe this?

Among all that has been revealed, there does not appear to be one. Let alone a chain discussing the importance of not at long last actually having the raw, how this loss might relate to the scores of emails they wrote about whether to release the data and how to avoid releasing the data and how they’d rather destroy it (I don’t know, “pretend to have lost it”) than give it to the folks who seem to be on to them.

This seems like a big email, and a chain of discussions that would pervade that which has been revealed. It doesn’t.

To the contrary, we have numerous emails from Jones explaining how turning over the raw data is one option, but he’d much rather destroy it than let the intrepid start pawing over it which could only lead, as he admits in one email, to figuring out what CRU et al did to said raw data in order to come up with their alarming claims.

So there is a reasonable conclusion, and it is not that the data was lost or destroyed twenty years ago.

But who knows, maybe Jones wrote James Hansen at NASA, or Gavin Schmidt – for so long a taxpayer-funded activist for Environmental Media Services’ RealClimate.blog and now implicated as a major player in these emails  (Capo number 6 according to this analysis). Those should turn up when the courts help NASA figure out how to come into compliance with their legal obligations and provide me similar data and correspondence that they have been, similarly and by chance, refusing me for over two years.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/03/climategate-so-wheres-the-oh-snap-email/
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Freeper

  • Topic Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17779
  • Reputation: +1311/-314
  • Creepy ass cracker.
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 05:36:08 PM »
The answer to that question is another question. Are their lips still moving? Or their fingers typing?

I may not lock my doors while sitting at a red light and a black man is near, but I sure as hell grab on tight to my wallet when any democrats are close by.

Offline Baruch Menachem

  • In a handbasket, heading to a warm destination
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Reputation: +37/-18
  • do the best you can with what you can
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 05:58:13 PM »
I seem to recall in the emails there is reference that they Should destroy the raw data, which implies that it was still there to be destroyed.
An optimist sees the glass as half full, a pessimist sees the glass as half empty, an engineer sees that there is twice the glass required to contain the beer

My name is Obamandias, King of Kings, 
  Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!


Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2222/-127
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 07:03:23 PM »
There has been a FOIA request to NASA to provide the data they have used on making their climate change predictions. They haven't been very cooperative.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 07:15:07 PM »
And now Phil Jones, as I understand it, has stepped down from his post, pending the outcome of an investigation, and is unavailable for comment......

A tenured academic heading a grant institution does not step down, unless there is a hell of a lot more to this fraud than we are presently aware........

I look forward to more revelations.

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28493
  • Reputation: +1707/-151
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 09:07:59 AM »
Is it lying if you really have no idea at all as to whether what you're saying is true?
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 02:59:16 PM »
Is it lying if you really have no idea at all as to whether what you're saying is true?

Yes.....

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline TheSarge

  • Platoon Sergeant
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9557
  • Reputation: +411/-252
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »
There has been a FOIA request to NASA to provide the data they have used on making their climate change predictions. They haven't been very cooperative.

There's been requests by scientists for the raw data used by the CRU that allegedly verifies their theory...and they've refused every time.

Now we know why.  They destroyed the raw data because they knew that when it was put under scrutiny it wouldn't hold up and their whole myth of man made global warming would be busted.
Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

If it walks like a donkey and brays like a donkey and smells like a donkey - it's Cold Warrior.  - PoliCon



Palin has run a state, a town and a commercial fishing operation. Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. - Mark Steyn

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 07:38:45 PM »
There's been requests by scientists for the raw data used by the CRU that allegedly verifies their theory...and they've refused every time.

Now we know why.  They destroyed the raw data because they knew that when it was put under scrutiny it wouldn't hold up and their whole myth of man made global warming would be busted.

On the academic science board that I moderate, one of the folks grabbed a batch of Fortran code that was contained in the initial data dump.........he ran it through a compiler, and voila!  It compiled........so at some point in time we will know what this program actually accomplishes......I suspect that the final verdict is that it "massages" the data, and distorts the end result......his last post indicated that he was going to feed a non-random database of identical two digit numbers (like temperatures) into it, and  see what comes out the other end.....we will see....

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline TheSarge

  • Platoon Sergeant
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9557
  • Reputation: +411/-252
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 07:58:34 PM »
Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

If it walks like a donkey and brays like a donkey and smells like a donkey - it's Cold Warrior.  - PoliCon



Palin has run a state, a town and a commercial fishing operation. Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. - Mark Steyn

Offline Baruch Menachem

  • In a handbasket, heading to a warm destination
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Reputation: +37/-18
  • do the best you can with what you can
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 11:26:24 PM »
On the academic science board that I moderate, one of the folks grabbed a batch of Fortran code that was contained in the initial data dump.........he ran it through a compiler, and voila!  It compiled........so at some point in time we will know what this program actually accomplishes......I suspect that the final verdict is that it "massages" the data, and distorts the end result......his last post indicated that he was going to feed a non-random database of identical two digit numbers (like temperatures) into it, and  see what comes out the other end.....we will see....

doc

Like the cat who ate the cheese and waited at the mouse hole... I wait your next post on this matter with baited breath.
An optimist sees the glass as half full, a pessimist sees the glass as half empty, an engineer sees that there is twice the glass required to contain the beer

My name is Obamandias, King of Kings, 
  Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!


Offline Baruch Menachem

  • In a handbasket, heading to a warm destination
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Reputation: +37/-18
  • do the best you can with what you can
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 08:56:13 AM »
Since there is silence on the matter, I assume the program ran without evidence of fraud.   Pity. 
An optimist sees the glass as half full, a pessimist sees the glass as half empty, an engineer sees that there is twice the glass required to contain the beer

My name is Obamandias, King of Kings, 
  Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!


Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 12:41:10 PM »
Since there is silence on the matter, I assume the program ran without evidence of fraud.   Pity. 

It will take some time.......most of the members are scientists that are working for a living, and are doing this in their spare time (and borrowing their employers mainframe time to do it).......I don't expect immediate results......

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Baruch Menachem

  • In a handbasket, heading to a warm destination
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Reputation: +37/-18
  • do the best you can with what you can
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 10:55:15 PM »
Why would you want to use your bosses mainframe. 
You can get a fortran compiler for any platform and since it is native to Unix, it should run great on your mac.
Source code for your fortran compiler for your mac is available here:  http://hpc.sourceforge.net/

I assume most of the climate guys are lying through their dentures.     I don't know the size of a data set they need to run this program through.  But I assume that all the numbers should be the same value just to show how things are massaged.  Can't they just create a database of 65s through a for-next loop?
An optimist sees the glass as half full, a pessimist sees the glass as half empty, an engineer sees that there is twice the glass required to contain the beer

My name is Obamandias, King of Kings, 
  Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!


Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 01:52:53 PM »
Why would you want to use your bosses mainframe. 
You can get a fortran compiler for any platform and since it is native to Unix, it should run great on your mac.
Source code for your fortran compiler for your mac is available here:  http://hpc.sourceforge.net/

I assume most of the climate guys are lying through their dentures.     I don't know the size of a data set they need to run this program through.  But I assume that all the numbers should be the same value just to show how things are massaged.  Can't they just create a database of 65s through a for-next loop?

I'm not doing it......just relaying information.......these people (on my academic board) tend to be very focused and very busy in their fields.....and (most of them) are pissed as hell that this scam is making real science lose credibility....if their past efforts are any indication, they are likely making certain that every step along the way is appropriately documented, and reviewed by (at least) one other independent party, to avoid the appearance that they are "stacking the deck", unlike the institution where all this is coming from, these folks operate on the world of "real science".....

If you are in such a great hurry for results, the code is out there on the net.....go compile it yourself, and get what you can out of it......

Don't shoot the messenger.....

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chump

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 909
  • Reputation: +0/-0
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2009, 11:05:51 AM »
Here's a slightly lengthy but very illuminating analysis:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/08/the-smoking-gun-at-darwin-zero/
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23048
  • Reputation: +2232/-269
  • Voted Rookie-of-the-Year, 3 years running
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2009, 02:13:25 PM »
Here's a slightly lengthy but very illuminating analysis:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/08/the-smoking-gun-at-darwin-zero/
SYNOPSIS:

The ongoing canard of climate cultists is: the scientists may have acted badly but the science is still good.

As one blogger noted:

Quote
Well. The thing is, there are only three main records of observed (real-measure) temperature: CRU, GISS (Godard Institute for Space Studies, at NASA -- Hansen's creature) and GHCN, (Global Historical Climate Network, at the NOAA).

Problem one: Both GISS and CRU get their raw data from the GHCN. So, right out of the box, these "independent" measurements which supposedly confirm each other are not looking very independent at all.

So how does the GHNC data stack-up?

It's not fit to wash hogs and the linked article proves it.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2222/-127
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2009, 02:36:17 PM »
And NASA is still refusing FOIA requests for their data and methodology.

Offline Doc

  • General Malcontent and
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
  • Reputation: +2/-3
  • Sic transit gloria mundi
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2009, 03:48:00 PM »
Here's a slightly lengthy but very illuminating analysis:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/08/the-smoking-gun-at-darwin-zero/

I agree, an excellent analysis of one geographic subset of raw data, wihich not only casts doubt on the entire premise, but at best is an indication of intentional fraud.

This analysis  should be done on all of the data subsets, and combined into a complete mathematical model, the only "adjustments" or "homoginization"should derive from a relocated station, or from averaging missing data, and be limited to extrapolation of the mean, creating a meaningful margin of error........

"Darwin One" should be tatooed on TNO's backside (complete with graphs)..........

doc
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 03:50:50 PM by TVDOC »

Offline DefiantSix

  • Set Condition One throughout the ship
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17420
  • Reputation: +1716/-189
  • Captain, IKV Defiant
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2009, 04:03:29 PM »

"Darwin One" should be tatooed on TNO's backside (complete with graphs)..........

As I can't think of anybody who wants to take chances on what they might have to look at for too damned long if they tattooed TNO's bum.

Probably better to mold "Darwin One" into a boot sole instead...  :evillaugh:
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here."
-- Capt. John Parker

"I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission"
-- Capt. Steve Rogers

"In this present crisis, government in not the solution to our problem, government IS the problem."
-- Ronaldus Magnus

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2009, 04:06:18 PM »
As I can't think of anybody who wants to take chances on what they might have to look at for too damned long if they tattooed TNO's bum.

Probably better to mold "Darwin One" into a boot sole instead...  :evillaugh:

On second thought......I agree....

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Baruch Menachem

  • In a handbasket, heading to a warm destination
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Reputation: +37/-18
  • do the best you can with what you can
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2009, 05:22:06 PM »
Thanks for that.   

Very interesting read on that data.  It is interesting to note that where they should have adjusted down for an anomaly, they adjusted up instead.  And they wonder where all the skepticism comes from
An optimist sees the glass as half full, a pessimist sees the glass as half empty, an engineer sees that there is twice the glass required to contain the beer

My name is Obamandias, King of Kings, 
  Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!


Offline Chump

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 909
  • Reputation: +0/-0
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2009, 08:17:13 PM »
The thing that struck me most was that they barely tried to hide their blatantly improper corrections.  No average trend, no questionable "rounding," just outright picking and choosing of which data to ignore, which to homogenize, and which to essentially change at will.  Of course, an experienced researcher would catch it (no FOIA request for you!), but for the rest of us, well, "the science is settled!TM"

If I were in any scientific field I would be red hot about this.  These arrogant fools have cast doubt on honest, hard work everywhere by the way they perverted the scientific method.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline Baruch Menachem

  • In a handbasket, heading to a warm destination
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Reputation: +37/-18
  • do the best you can with what you can
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2009, 08:23:59 PM »
I don't like the "Science is settled" argument much either.  That dumb Polack Copernicus was wrong about the Heliocentric universe.  The science was settled.  That goofy wop Columbus was all wrong about the shape of the earth.  The science was settled. That Quack Walter Reed went around questioning the science about contagion?  Who does Darwin think he is to challenge Genisis?  That issue is settled.    That Jooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Einstein has the audacity to question Newton?  The science is settled.
An optimist sees the glass as half full, a pessimist sees the glass as half empty, an engineer sees that there is twice the glass required to contain the beer

My name is Obamandias, King of Kings, 
  Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!


Offline DumbAss Tanker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28493
  • Reputation: +1707/-151
Re: Are Climategaters Still Lying?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2009, 10:35:26 AM »
The ongoing canard of climate cultists is: the scientists may have acted badly but the science is still good.

Nobody with a shred of scientific intregity could say conclusions are valid when the data used to get to them is compromised or lost.  The essence of scientific proof is that results can be and have been replicated from the basic raw data by other scientist acting completely independently, not that you can pick it up after smoothing, outlier-discarding, and (In this case) upward-biasing algorithms have been applied to it.  The whole 'Fake but honest' circling of the wagons being done in the grant-sucking so-called science community is a complete travesty and prostitution of their foundational principles.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.