Which "God" is the Right One (Thread title changed by moderator)

[vesta111]

   As I watch and read all the things that are being put forth about a single monster that went round the bend, some things bother me.

My family are Free Masons, have been for 6+ generations.

I as a female and by extention to the family's of Masons and Shriner's know little about the Craft.

One thing I do Know, the Pledge Masons make is for ---GOD, Country, and Family in that order.

Odd but both the Masons and those of Islam both use the Koran and the Bible in some of their ceremony's.

So here I have the big problem of understanding how this is not a good thing or a bad thing.

True we do not have Masons and Shriner's running amok and gunning down people, we only get the millions of dollars they send to help others, the countless hours they spend to help their comunity with no publicity.

How two beliefs that respect each other can have such a parting of the way is beyond me.

We wonder how the Islams put God first over their country or family------Then we who are fortunate enough to have a Mason in the family finds they also put God first.

Questions from just a simple man/woman, in the dark of the night when sleep will not come, please help me out on this dilemma.

As an old lady I ask uncomfortable questions, things I would have never dared before.

How do we handle very dangerous people that want our down fall because they place GOD over Country--when we do the same. How to combat those of evil intent when their beliefs are the same as ours.

Whose God are we talking about, why do we have the same God dressed up wearing a different HAT for for their believers.?

Ban me if you will, but I have these questions and wonder at what this has brought us.

Is there a head doctor in the house that can give it a try to explain to me what is going on.?








  

[MrsSmith]

There is God, and then there are "gods" that are worshipped by humans.  Which "god" would teach that wearing a suicide bomb into a marketplace and taking multiple innocents with your own life will earn a bunch of virgins for endless sex in Heaven?  God's revelation of Himself does in no way line up with much of the Koran.  The little that does was copied...Mohammed even admitted as much by quoting Christ as a prophet. 

[jtyangel]

Perhaps it depends on what God you are serving, Vesta. Christians serve God too, but a God of forgiveness. And Islam a 'god' of vengence. it would seem the two are at odds. In this case, even if one does not have a belief system(like DUmmies), the question would(and should) be, which faith benefits humanity most through it's practice and it is not the latter of the two.

Liberals, in particular, have a tendency of picking whoever they see as the minority in any area. It does not matter to them how morally bankrupt or nonsensical or viscious that minority is; like children, they pick as their champion that which rebels against what they see as the paternal figure in any society. Sorry, that's a bit off tangent, but there it is.

[Wineslob]

The "God" of Islam is as far as I'm concerned is no "God". It is the fantasy of a man that made up a religion to suit his own pet perversions, and now coming to light is the possibility that he never existed.
I am constantly reminded of the quote "Beware of false prophets".

[Splashdown]

I think the biggest difference of the major religions is that Judaism and Christianity have gone through a reformation--the Word of God remains intact, but people for the most part realize that the message of the religions is love. Islam has not gone through such a reformation--most of the tenets are exactly the same as they were 800 years ago.

[vesta111]

Perhaps it depends on what God you are serving, Vesta. Christians serve God too, but a God of forgiveness. And Islam a 'god' of vengence. it would seem the two are at odds. In this case, even if one does not have a belief system(like DUmmies), the question would(and should) be, which faith benefits humanity most through it's practice and it is not the latter of the two.

Liberals, in particular, have a tendency of picking whoever they see as the minority in any area. It does not matter to them how morally bankrupt or nonsensical or viscious that minority is; like children, they pick as their champion that which rebels against what they see as the paternal figure in any society. Sorry, that's a bit off tangent, but there it is.

Your point JTY is taken and accepted.

Society however is paternal run, has a double standard to favor the male. I see nothing in either the Koran or Bible that places any value on the female-----with the exception of the Catholic Church that after 1,000 AD began the veneration of Mary but only because she was the chosen to give birth to Jesus.-- I have read that as woman began to gain controll money the Church had to keep the woman faithfull and were forced to give respect to a female figure.

God and there can only be one of them in our faith, unless Hindu, Carry many names and wears a dozen hats.   The different Chronicles that go back thousands of years are much alike just different traditions.

What I ask is what evil is in the Koran that one can not compare to the Old Testament storeys.?

What drives men to decide that his faith is any better then others.  At one time a Quaker woman was dragged in back of a cart in my area through town as punishment for her beliefs.

Why is it so upsetting for us to hear the Muslims wish to kill all non-believers. At one time the faith we follow also believed this and and we turn a blind eye to our heritage.

Have we run up against a faith that people follow to the letter where as we just give lip service to our own faith.  Have we become so self sufficient we no longer need to obey the laws laid down by our God.?

We call ourselves Christians, yet we have a loop hole that allows us to do as we wish--free will--and at a later date feel bad about our acts, confess and begs God to forgive us for using the very thing he gave to us.  We expect to be forgiven, even demand it of God.

Questions such as this  have haunted me all my life, I believe Jimmy Carter who after 60 years left his church over the  [Woman must be subjuctagated to her husband ]  Why didn't he leave as a youth, why take a life time to figure out that to his mind  this is not valid.?

Now we are amazed to find within our society people that follow and live as their Prophet tells them to.  Has done so for since the 700  AD era.

What happend to    [  Onward Christian solders, marching off to war  ]

[Doc]

  As I watch and read all the things that are being put forth about a single monster that went round the bend, some things bother me.

My family are Free Masons, have been for 6+ generations.

I as a female and by extention to the family's of Masons and Shriner's know little about the Craft.

One thing I do Know, the Pledge Masons make is for ---GOD, Country, and Family in that order.

Odd but both the Masons and those of Islam both use the Koran and the Bible in some of their ceremony's.

The Masonic concept of God, and the bolded portion of your comments are an incorrect generalization of the precepts of Masonic principle.

"God" in Masonry is referred to as "The Grand Architect of the Universe" typically, and members of any monotheistic religion are welcome. Religion and politics are forbidden subjects in a Masonic Lodge while in session.  While it is true that the Quran can be used in Masonic ritual, so can a Bible, or Torah also be used, depending on the membership, as its presence is symbolic in nature only.

Masonry is open to all men of good character, and can most simply be described as a "simple and compelling moral code on which to structure ones life".........

As a female, the Eastern Star is certainly available to you, and the teachings and moral concepts are obviously very similar......

As to what motivates some followers of islam to commit horrible acts in the name of their "God"........I cannot answer.....only those followers can do so, but it would not be possible to find one that is a committed Mason.....the two sets of beliefs are diametrically opposed.

doc

[Chris_]

What I ask is what evil is in the Koran that one can not compare to the Old Testament storeys.?

What drives men to decide that his faith is any better then others.  At one time a Quaker woman was dragged in back of a cart in my area through town as punishment for her beliefs.

Why is it so upsetting for us to hear the Muslims wish to kill all non-believers. At one time the faith we follow also believed this and and we turn a blind eye to our heritage.

Have we run up against a faith that people follow to the letter where as we just give lip service to our own faith.  Have we become so self sufficient we no longer need to obey the laws laid down by our God.?

We call ourselves Christians, yet we have a loop hole that allows us to do as we wish--free will--and at a later date feel bad about our acts, confess and begs God to forgive us for using the very thing he gave to us.  We expect to be forgiven, even demand it of God.

Questions such as this  have haunted me all my life, I believe Jimmy Carter who after 60 years left his church over the  [Woman must be subjuctagated to her husband ]  Why didn't he leave as a youth, why take a life time to figure out that to his mind  this is not valid.?

I believe that much of the problem you site spins out of people (and religious denominations) reading their sacred texts out of context in many cases.  The stories related in the Old Testament are historical, passed down by word of mouth over centuries, and tend to be allegorical in nature.  Many who criticize Christianity forget that we have a "New Covenant" that sets aside the ancient laws set forth for the Jews. Even Jewish scholars are still arguing the precepts in what we refer to as the "Old Testament", due to their allegorical nature.

I have read the Quran (as best I could.....since it is designed to be studied in its original Arabic), and have not found subjugation of women present any more so than was the historical case in the Old Testament........and these concepts were set fourth for very different reasons than those sited today........one must understand the history of the times when you interpret these teachings.

doc

[MrsSmith]

Eph 5: 25-33  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 


That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 


That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 


So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 


For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 


For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 


For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 


This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 


Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband. 

======


1Pe 3:7 You husbands in the same way, live with {your wives} in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. 

=======

Christianity makes me a full heir in the grace of life...and puts the burden for a happy marriage upon my husband.  I am only ordered to respect and submit to him.  He is ordered to love me as Christ loved the church.  This is not only a way better deal than was normal 2000 years ago, it's a way better deal than Islam offers...and it's actually a way better deal than our "new, enlightened marriages."  In fact, our "new, enlightened marriage advisors" are finally coming around to Biblical truth and teaching wives to treat their husbands with respect, and husbands to treat their wives with love for the best possible relationship for both. 

[Chump]

Christianity makes me a full heir in the grace of life...and puts the burden for a happy marriage upon my husband.  I am only ordered to respect and submit to him.  He is ordered to love me as Christ loved the church.  This is not only a way better deal than was normal 2000 years ago, it's a way better deal than Islam offers...and it's actually a way better deal than our "new, enlightened marriages."  In fact, our "new, enlightened marriage advisors" are finally coming around to Biblical truth and teaching wives to treat their husbands with respect, and husbands to treat their wives with love for the best possible relationship for both. 

Big ^5 for your whole post, but that part in particular stood out for me.  It took me back to pre-marital counseling days when we were asked to identify the different ways we preferred to be "loved."  Invariably, my choices boiled down to wanting to be respected as my wife's husband and as a man, while my wife needs emotional support and displays of affection from me.  That's not to say there's a clear line anywhere, but our pastor used our answers as a lead-in to a discussion of the proper husband and wife roles.  It's sad to see people claim that women are commanded to "just submit," as if the teaching ends there.

[Thor]

Man, did this thread get hijacked quickly.

I will say one thing in reference to Islam. Islam is divided. There are the followers of peaceful Islam and then there are those that have hijacked their faith in order to promote it, force it, and commit war on those that are not Islamic. Christianity has had similar hijackings. Where in the Bible does it say that it's OK to kill someone because they are sinners?? (I'm referring to the folks blowing up abortion clinics). One MIGHT find that in the old testament, which the Qur'An is based on, but definitely NOT in the new testament. Then again, we don't have massive amounts of religious zealots that are committing crimes in the name of Christianity. We need to look at all religious beliefs objectively.

That said, I'm hearing more and more of Radical Islam growing by leaps and bounds over in Europe. Their one goal is to make Islam a worldwide religion and make Shari'a law the law of the land. Quite honestly, were we to follow the laws of Christianity, we truly wouldn't be terribly far from Shari'a law. There ARE some differences, but on the whole, they follow the same lines of thought. That said, I don't want to be "ruled" by any religion, person OR Government.

[Splashdown]

Man, did this thread get hijacked quickly.

I will say one thing in reference to Islam. Islam is divided. There are the followers of peaceful Islam and then there are those that have hijacked their faith in order to promote it, force it, and commit war on those that are not Islamic. Christianity has had similar hijackings. Where in the Bible does it say that it's OK to kill someone because they are sinners?? (I'm referring to the folks blowing up abortion clinics). One MIGHT find that in the old testament, which the Qur'An is based on, but definitely NOT in the new testament. Then again, we don't have massive amounts of religious zealots that are committing crimes in the name of Christianity. We need to look at all religious beliefs objectively.

That said, I'm hearing more and more of Radical Islam growing by leaps and bounds over in Europe. Their one goal is to make Islam a worldwide religion and make Shari'a law the law of the land. Quite honestly, were we to follow the laws of Christianity, we truly wouldn't be terribly far from Shari'a law. There ARE some differences, but on the whole, they follow the same lines of thought. That said, I don't want to be "ruled" by any religion, person OR Government.

Thor, while I don't disagree with you, I think you'll find the proportion is far different. If radical Islam is an abberation, it's a pretty big one. You won't find the Sisters of St. Joseph, for example, calling for the eradication of Presbyterians. You do have entire Islamist states calling for the destruction of Israel.

[vesta111]

Thor, while I don't disagree with you, I think you'll find the proportion is far different. If radical Islam is an abberation, it's a pretty big one. You won't find the Sisters of St. Joseph, for example, calling for the eradication of Presbyterians. You do have entire Islamist states calling for the destruction of Israel.

 You won't find the Sisters of St. Joseph, for example, calling for the eradication of Presbyterians. You do have entire Islamist states calling for the destruction of Israel.

This is so funny, vigilante NUNS.

[Splashdown]

This is so funny, vigilante NUNS.

[txted]

In the Islamic religion, the Koran teaches love and most of the virtues taught in the Christain new testament. The exception is Surya (Chapter) #9 which explicitly requires or authorizes (depends on how you read it) the death of non believers, deniers, or infidels. It also bestows rewards in Heaven for those who kill infidels. Male and female believers are treated almost equally in the Koran. The Islamic religion has an honor code that is socially imposed. It is not in the Koran. The code defines the females of the family as the center of honor. They must be confined, restrained, covered, and purity maintained to preserve family honor.

In Judaism, the old testament ten commandments are the foundation of Law. Then depending on the orthodox sect you happen to belong to, you may have over 1000 additional rabbinical (priestly) laws which you are subject to. The Torah scroll is simply the list of laws outside of the ten commandments. As an ignorant non Jew, I believe the Jewish faith also has deep respect for the female members of the faith.

As a Christian, I believe in the Laws God gave us in the Ten Commandments. I also believe Christ said in the new testament "I am the new law". Christ then went on to reaffirm through parables and teachings the same laws God provided in the Ten Commandments. As a Christian, I believe the sex of a believer is irrelevant. Treatment and respect for both should be equal. Since we are so obviously different in design, we do have different roles to perform in life; but both roles deserve equal respect.

txted

[Chris_]

In the Islamic religion, the Koran teaches love and most of the virtues taught in the Christain new testament. The exception is Surya (Chapter) #9 which explicitly requires or authorizes (depends on how you read it) the death of non believers, deniers, or infidels. It also bestows rewards in Heaven for those who kill infidels. Male and female believers are treated almost equally in the Koran. The Islamic religion has an honor code that is socially imposed. It is not in the Koran. The code defines the females of the family as the center of honor. They must be confined, restrained, covered, and purity maintained to preserve family honor.

In Judaism, the old testament ten commandments are the foundation of Law. Then depending on the orthodox sect you happen to belong to, you may have over 1000 additional rabbinical (priestly) laws which you are subject to. The Torah scroll is simply the list of laws outside of the ten commandments. As an ignorant non Jew, I believe the Jewish faith also has deep respect for the female members of the faith.

As a Christian, I believe in the Laws God gave us in the Ten Commandments. I also believe Christ said in the new testament "I am the new law". Christ then went on to reaffirm through parables and teachings the same laws God provided in the Ten Commandments. As a Christian, I believe the sex of a believer is irrelevant. Treatment and respect for both should be equal. Since we are so obviously different in design, we do have different roles to perform in life; but both roles deserve equal respect.

txted

As a Christian, some of my brothers might argue with me, but I think that more effort should be given to understanding people of other faiths.........there is richness to be found in the Koran, and the teachings of Budda and Shinto as well......a closer understanding of people of all faiths would result in sugnificantly less strife in the world. There are many issues that we can fight over, but our respective faith should not be among them.

I sometimes have to bite my tongue when it comes to Islam, but I can't hold the many responsible for the acts of the few.......and Christianity is not without its own "skeletons in closets"........

doc

[debk]

In Judaism, the old testament ten commandments are the foundation of Law. Then depending on the orthodox sect you happen to belong to, you may have over 1000 additional rabbinical (priestly) laws which you are subject to. The Torah scroll is simply the list of laws outside of the ten commandments. As an ignorant non Jew, I believe the Jewish faith also has deep respect for the female members of the faith.

txted

In Judaism....the "religion" is passed to the child from the mother.

If the mother is not Jewish...then neither is the child without converting.

If the mother is Jewish....then the child is automatically Jewish.

[txted]

In Judaism....the "religion" is passed to the child from the mother.

If the mother is not Jewish...then neither is the child without converting.

If the mother is Jewish....then the child is automatically Jewish.

In Judaism, the race or ethnicity is passed on by the mother. It is a matriarchal society. Islam is a patriarchal society in which all ethnic identity as well as property is passed from Father to first born son. The Jewish religion accepts converts from any ethnic group (read Dr. Laura or Madonna), but if their mothers were not Jewish by birth, it is impossible to pass on their jewishness to their offspring. I'm not knowledgeable enough on Buddism or the Hindu faith to comment. I am confident enough as a Christian to say we have no ethnic requirements. While we do have civil laws defining rules or laws of inheritance, Christ released us from the bondage of the old Rabbinical laws regarding ethnic and property inheritance when he said "I am the new law".

txted 

[Oceander]

As a Christian, some of my brothers might argue with me, but I think that more effort should be given to understanding people of other faiths.........there is richness to be found in the Koran, and the teachings of Budda and Shinto as well......a closer understanding of people of all faiths would result in sugnificantly less strife in the world. There are many issues that we can fight over, but our respective faith should not be among them.

I sometimes have to bite my tongue when it comes to Islam, but I can't hold the many responsible for the acts of the few.......and Christianity is not without its own "skeletons in closets"........

doc

I think very few would disagree with you regarding the point of "understanding people of other faiths" - provided we adhere to the literal meaning of "understanding" and eschew the liberal gloss that converts understanding into passive, suicidal tolerance - but I think you would find a lot less agreement that such "understanding" would, ipso facto, lead to less violence - certainly that would not happen if the "understanding" were merely unilateral - and regarding the responsibility of the many viz. the acts of the few, common decency obliges the many to rebuke the few and to affirmatively deny that the few speak for the many - silence does, in many instances, imply consent.  That is the issue with Islam today, not the number, variety, or quality of the "skeletons in the closet."

[txted]

I think very few would disagree with you regarding the point of "understanding people of other faiths" - provided we adhere to the literal meaning of "understanding" and eschew the liberal gloss that converts understanding into passive, suicidal tolerance - but I think you would find a lot less agreement that such "understanding" would, ipso facto, lead to less violence - certainly that would not happen if the "understanding" were merely unilateral - and regarding the responsibility of the many viz. the acts of the few, common decency obliges the many to rebuke the few and to affirmatively deny that the few speak for the many - silence does, in many instances, imply consent.  That is the issue with Islam today, not the number, variety, or quality of the "skeletons in the closet."

I agree. I think that is what bothers me about the Islamic apologists today. They claim to be loving, caring adherents of Islam. Their silence on the subject of Jihad tells me as much as a Christians silence on abortion clinic bombers. Both are equally wrong and should be equally condemned by everyone.

txted

[Chris_]

I agree. I think that is what bothers me about the Islamic apologists today. They claim to be loving, caring adherents of Islam. Their silence on the subject of Jihad tells me as much as a Christians silence on abortion clinic bombers. Both are equally wrong and should be equally condemned by everyone.

txted

Well.....having lived and worked in an Islamic country (Saudi Arabia), i can attest to the fact that the silence of the majority is the result of fear, and not agreement with the fundamentalists.

Although the scale and scope is certainly different, it is not unlike the "Inquisition"......

doc

[SVPete]

... a Christians silence on abortion clinic bombers ...

Are you seriously implying that Christians have been silent about such murderers?

[Oceander]

Well.....having lived and worked in an Islamic country (Saudi Arabia), i can attest to the fact that the silence of the majority is the result of fear, and not agreement with the fundamentalists.

Although the scale and scope is certainly different, it is not unlike the "Inquisition"......

doc

And that applies just how to the rather large muslim communities in countries that are a tad freer than Saudi Arabia, like the UK, perhaps?

[Chris_]

And that applies just how to the rather large muslim communities in countries that are a tad freer than Saudi Arabia, like the UK, perhaps?

Same principle applies........do you think that there are no extremists in the UK, or even the US?  these nations may be "freer", but their muslim populations are fairly balkanized, and subject to the same pressures from within.

doc

[Oceander]

Same principle applies........do you think that there are no extremists in the UK, or even the US?  these nations may be "freer", but their muslim populations are fairly balkanized, and subject to the same pressures from within.

doc

Two points:  first, that's b.s. when it comes to the US (unsupported assertion against unsupported assertion, except that I have the Constitution and 200 years of US cultural tradition on my side, so I win the presumption of correctness) - prove that the "suppression" of all muslims in the US is so powerful that there is nary a peep of opposition to even the most inhumane activities carried out in the name of Islam.  Second, so what?  That sorry pathetic excuse didn't get any of the "Good Germans" off the hook, and it doesn't carry any water for any "Good Muslim" either.