Author Topic: Atheist Enlightenment  (Read 4533 times)

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Atheist Enlightenment
« on: July 20, 2009, 09:28:40 PM »
We have an atheist in class who insists the world will not be better until humanity becomes enlightened enough to realize we must be free of needs and all agree to work together for the betterment of all, i.e. education.

It makes the veins in my head start out when my fellow heathens talk like this.

I asked such questions as "So we all agree our kids should be educated, but by which method: centralized or decentralized, public or private" "Who decides what enlightenment means?" "What if I choose not to sign on?"

All he could do was bitch "I'm not going to argue semantics with you."

I retorted that I think "enlightenment" (Yes, he used that exact word) is a bullshit notion.

He said the cynics were the problem. I replied the cynics proved my point by their very existence.

Alas, class started and I had so many more things to ask, i.e. that enlightenment presupposes a transcendent standard outside of time and space and thus most materialsist schemes of enlightenment are simply hints of God minus personhood.

I have yet to hear a good argument for materialistic atheistic enlightenmen. When it comes to materialist paradigms I tend to drift a bit to the nihilist side. Maybe I just don't read enough.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Atheist Enlightenment
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009, 10:36:37 PM »
I have no idea what the materialist atheistic enlightenment may be defined as but since I heard it about a year ago I have loved the Buddha's definition of enlightenment as the end of suffering.  Sometimes in my ego, I become convinced I am more enlightened than someone else and then I remember that definition and look at the areas in my life where I am still suffering and happily realize I am not enlightened yet and so yes, I can still expect to suffer and since enlightenment is an all or nothing proposition I can't really be in any position to judge my brother, even if he happens to be a DUmmie. ;)

I've read that one of the reasons Buddhism is incomplete is because Buddha never really dealt directly with the subject of God, as such it may be a more approachable form a metaphysics to an atheist as a means of attaining enlightenment.

I think you are correct though when you point out that without a proper definition of what enlightenment is, it can be a very hard fish to fly.  For most people, enlightenment is "thinking the same exact way I do."  Especially politically in modern America.  Where this falls apart for me is, if I am still suffering then thinking like I do wont bring anybody to enlightenment.

As the classic George Romero movie, Day of the Dead puts it:

Sarah: Maybe if we tried working together we could ease some of the tensions. We're all pulling in different directions.
John: That's the trouble with the world, Sarah darlin'. People got different ideas concernin' what they want out of life.

So, the conclusion I draw from all of this is, there will be no peace in the world until people decide what they want most is inner peace.  And since, just like freedom, inner peace cannot be imposed on people from the outside, all plans at enlightening other people will fail.  Each of us has the chance to bring one person to enlightenment directly.  In light of this, I think the concept of materialistic atheistic enlightenment is flawed simply because the whole philosophy of materialism assumes outer forces working on other outer forces.  To be simplistic, many Utopian schemes seem to attempt to bring inner peace by getting people enough stuff and taking stuff away from groups of people who have lots of stuff and giving it to groups of people who have less stuff and it has absolutely nothing to do with enlightenment.  Even a materialist who doesn't accept the concept of pure Mind understands that if he stubs his toe, he's not feeling the pain in his toe but in his brain.  The body doesn't feel any pain that the mind/brain doesn't tell it to feel.

In the same way we do not suffer because of actual lack in the outer world but because of perceived lack in the inner world.  It's not easy, as Einstein said, reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one.  It is the persistent nature of the illusion that makes it so hard to break out of the cycle of suffering because even those times we get the brief insight that we are living in a dream, the dream comes from behind with a boot up our ass and say, "you feel that don't you?"  But we all know from experience that just because we seem to be able to see something or touch something or taste something or smell something or hear something, doesn't mean it is actually there.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Atheist Enlightenment
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2009, 11:00:14 PM »
Apart from the moralist undercurrents buddhism can be quite nihilistic. Nothing says Oblivion quite like a creed that sees the person annihilated into something that was never him.

Delicious.

I for one revel in too many hedonistic tendencies to subscribe to the notion I ought to dispense with desire to escape suffering. A good romp in the hay is still a good romp in the hay even if you skin your knee bailing out of the window when her husband comes home. Hell, it only makes it that much more exhilirating at the moment and makes for a helluva story later.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Atheist Enlightenment
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 12:07:39 AM »
Apart from the moralist undercurrents buddhism can be quite nihilistic. Nothing says Oblivion quite like a creed that sees the person annihilated into something that was never him.

Delicious.

I for one revel in too many hedonistic tendencies to subscribe to the notion I ought to dispense with desire to escape suffering. A good romp in the hay is still a good romp in the hay even if you skin your knee bailing out of the window when her husband comes home. Hell, it only makes it that much more exhilirating at the moment and makes for a helluva story later.
There is this to consider, I read this book a while ago where this guy talks about going to see these two Buddhist Monks, I can't remember too much about why they were there or what the event was but there was a Q&A period and after some pedestrian questioning one brave woman stood up and asked how they could go so long without sex.  And the older monk who also spoke English at least as well as the Dali Lama said, "Well when you're cumming all the time, it doesn't make any difference."

But there is another thing I think is a misunderstood concept, the idea of having to give things up to attain inner peace, certain things will bring inner peace faster if they are omitted, such as condemnation and egoic ideas about being above others (which is condemnation again), but the whole idea of having to give something up does not induce any sense of peace.  For the guy who became Buddha, it seems nothing in the world was giving him inner peace, not even the occasional romp in the hay so for him it was perfectly okay to give up the world because it didn't mean anything to him anymore anyway.

I guess there is that same nihilistic streak in my to some extent but I do believe that when I am ready,  when I tire of the shabby toys of earth, I will remember who I am and then I will take my rightful place with God, not as a glorified body but as God truly created me.  And this is where it gets confusing, if God created me perfect, then I must still be perfect even if I choose not to see myself that way, even if I choose not to be at  peace in this moment.  Just because I choose believe and give meaning to a lie doesn't mean I can obliterate the truth.  And just because I worship a lie doesn't mean I can make it true.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline Sam Adams

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Re: Atheist Enlightenment
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 08:37:50 AM »
If by "enlightenment" the speaker means a good education, he is certainly wrong. Despite what many educators allege, a good education cannot make a bad man become a good man. And if it cannot do this for a single man, how can it do this for a whole society?

He might be thinking of Plato. Plato championed the whole "enlightenment makes men good" idea, and he was wrong. I admit I was quite taken by Plato at one time, but not anymore.


The problem is that men are evil by nature. Only Jesus Christ can set them free. Anything else will fail.

Offline USA4ME

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Re: Atheist Enlightenment
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2009, 08:32:58 AM »
We have an atheist in class who insists the world will not be better until humanity becomes enlightened enough to realize we must be free of needs and all agree to work together for the betterment of all.

Free of "needs" or free of "wants?"  If he were to claim free of wants he would at least have an argument, howbeit an unrealistic one.  But one can't be free of needs and live.  For instance, we need to eat.  We may also want to eat, but at some point we have to eat, therefore when all is said and done it is a need and not a want.  I want a car.  I may feel like I need a car, but if for some reason cars were to magically disappear from the earth, could I eventually get from A to B without it?  Yes.  So it's a want and not a need.

Yeah, "the world will not be better until humanity becomes enlightened enough to realize we must be free of needs."  We'd all be dead from our refusal to give into our "need" to eat.

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« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 01:19:44 PM by USA4ME »
Because third world peasant labor is a good thing.