Author Topic: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting  (Read 12627 times)

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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2008, 08:08:59 AM »
So what is the correct temperature of the earth anyway?

the correct temperature of the earth is "not too cold, and not too hot". :-)

Eesh!

I had a vision of Algore in a pink dress and blonde curls playing Goldilocks.

bingo. :-)

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2008, 09:31:42 AM »

At best the question then becomes one of: what is warming the oceans because glacial ice melt pretty much ceases to serve as a GW bludgeon because if you say, "We have GW and we know this because the glaciers are melting!" we'll tell you that the scare tactics aren't going to wash if the ice is being melted by a volcano.


Huh? On what basis do make the claim that glacial melting has ceased to be evidence that the Earth is warming and that mankind may be the primary cause of that warming? As I have said at least a few times now, the article indicates that volcanoes are only contributing to glacial melting, not causing it. The fact that volcanoes are contributing to glacial melting does not mean that anthropgenic warming is not the primary force or at least a significant force contributing to global warming.

That natural processes may be contributing to global warming in no way disputes the theory that global warming is anthropogenic in nature.
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Offline dixierat

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2008, 09:42:34 AM »

At best the question then becomes one of: what is warming the oceans because glacial ice melt pretty much ceases to serve as a GW bludgeon because if you say, "We have GW and we know this because the glaciers are melting!" we'll tell you that the scare tactics aren't going to wash if the ice is being melted by a volcano.


Huh? On what basis do make the claim that glacial melting has ceased to be evidence that the Earth is warming and that mankind may be the primary cause of that warming? As I have said at least a few times now, the article indicates that volcanoes are only contributing to glacial melting, not causing it. The fact that volcanoes are contributing to glacial melting does not mean that anthropgenic warming is not the primary force or at least a significant force contributing to global warming.

That natural processes may be contributing to global warming in no way disputes the theory that global warming is anthropogenic in nature.

For real? I mean, IF the glaciers in the Antarctic are melting because of volcanic activity does that not undermine the theory that man is causiong GW to some extent at least?
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2008, 10:04:27 AM »
in fact, anyone that disagrees with the orthodoxy that man's activity is the sole cause of climate change is usually hooted right out of academic circles.

Among scientists who accept the theory of anthropogenic global warming, the most widely accepted view on what is causing that warming is best represented by the IPCC report. According to the IPCC, human activities are the primary cause of global warming, not the sole cause of it.

Please read page 100 of the IPCC FAQ on global warming...

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_FAQs.pdf

Human activities contribute to climate change by causing changes in Earth’s atmosphere in the amounts of greenhouse gases,
aerosols (small particles), and cloudiness. The largest known contribution comes from the burning of fossil fuels, which releases carbon dioxide gas to the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases and aerosols affect climate by altering incoming solar radiation and out-going infrared (thermal) radiation that are part of Earth’s energy balance. Changing the atmospheric abundance or properties of these gases and particles can lead to a warming or cooling of the climate system. Since the start of the industrial era (about 1750), the overall effect of human activities on climate has been a warming influence. The human impact on climate during this era greatly exceeds that due to known changes in natural processes, such as solar changes and volcanic eruptions.


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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2008, 10:05:37 AM »
For real? I mean, IF the glaciers in the Antarctic are melting because of volcanic activity does that not undermine the theory that man is causiong GW to some extent at least?

Please read the entire thread. The article in question does not contain a claim that glaciers are melting because of volcanic activities. The article is about research which indicates that volcanic activitiy is contributing to glacial melting.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2008, 10:08:37 AM »
Huh? On what basis do make the claim that glacial melting has ceased to be evidence that the Earth is warming and that mankind may be the primary cause of that warming? As I have said at least a few times now, the article indicates that volcanoes are only contributing to glacial melting, not causing it. The fact that volcanoes are contributing to glacial melting does not mean that anthropgenic warming is not the primary force or at least a significant force contributing to global warming.

That natural processes may be contributing to global warming in no way disputes the theory that global warming is anthropogenic in nature.
You are so goddam dense Superman can't see through your head.

The point is: taking melting glaciers, hoisting them in the air and yelling, "See! See! Mankind is doing this! Now hand over your economy and your laws!" is no longer viable. You need to lok at something other than glaciers to frighten us with your little bogey man stories.

Now go find us evidence of anthropogenic global warming that does not involve melting glaciers. The article mentioned the oceans. Why not try to tell us why the oceans are getting warmer (or as was alluded to earlier: perhaps they're returning to normal temperatures after a cool-down cycle)?
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2008, 10:31:36 AM »
The point is: taking melting glaciers, hoisting them in the air and yelling, "See! See! Mankind is doing this! Now hand over your economy and your laws!" is no longer viable. You need to lok at something other than glaciers to frighten us with your little bogey man stories.

Straight up, guy... Why do you keep arguing that an article which contains a claim that volcanoes are contributing to, not causing, glacial melting somehow disproves the claim that mankind is the primary cause of climate change? I just don't understand your reasoning.

Quote
Now go find us evidence of anthropogenic global warming that does not involve melting glaciers.

You haven't provided a shred of evidence to prove the idea that glacial melting is entirely the result of natural processes so don't ask me to accept that idea as the premise for further discussion.

The fact that volcanoes and other natural forces are contributing to global warming does not disprove the idea that human activities are the primary cause or a significant cause of global warming. I don't know how to put it more simply than that.

Quote
The article mentioned the oceans. Why not try to tell us why the oceans are getting warmer (or as was alluded to earlier: perhaps they're returning to normal temperatures after a cool-down cycle)?

I haven't discussed the cause of rising ocean temperatures because my goal in this thread is to disabuse you of the notion that the article this thread is about contains evidence that mankind is not the cause of global warming or for that matter glacial melting.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 10:37:43 AM by The Night Owl »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2008, 10:35:47 AM »
in fact, anyone that disagrees with the orthodoxy that man's activity is the sole cause of climate change is usually hooted right out of academic circles.

Among scientists who accept the theory of anthropogenic global warming, the most widely accepted view on what is causing that warming is best represented by the IPCC report. According to the IPCC, human activities are the primary cause of global warming, not the sole cause of it.

Please read page 100 of the IPCC FAQ on global warming...

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_FAQs.pdf

Human activities contribute to climate change by causing changes in Earth’s atmosphere in the amounts of greenhouse gases,
aerosols (small particles), and cloudiness. The largest known contribution comes from the burning of fossil fuels, which releases carbon dioxide gas to the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases and aerosols affect climate by altering incoming solar radiation and out-going infrared (thermal) radiation that are part of Earth’s energy balance. Changing the atmospheric abundance or properties of these gases and particles can lead to a warming or cooling of the climate system. Since the start of the industrial era (about 1750), the overall effect of human activities on climate has been a warming influence. The human impact on climate during this era greatly exceeds that due to known changes in natural processes, such as solar changes and volcanic eruptions.




Jeeze, a study by a body that will get tons of money and, more importantly, power, by finding GW is caused by humans!  Wow!  I think you will have to wake me up from my fainting by surprise!!

Climatology is an infant science -- less than 30 years old.  Remember Global Cooling in the 70's?  Same folks.

I know science very well.  And I assure you climatology is NOT science, yet.  Give it 100 years or so and it might be a hand-child of science.

It is politics and guesswork at this point.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2008, 10:38:39 AM »
SUBJECT:
Glacial Ice Melt

POSSIBLE CAUSES:
Magma, measuring 1000's of degrees
Naturally occurring cyclical temperature shifts
Anthropogenic global warming measured in tenths-of-degrees


Of all the things listed that could be causing glacier melting why should I view mankind as THE threat?

According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2008, 10:39:27 AM »


Climatology is an infant science -- less than 30 years old.  Remember Global Cooling in the 70's?  Same folks.



Not true. The theory of global cooling which gained publicity in the 1970s was not widely accepted by scientists at the time. It was mostly a media phenomenon.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2008, 10:42:18 AM »
Not true. The theory of global cooling which gained publicity in the 1970s was not widely accepted by scientists at the time. It was mostly a media phenomenon.
Are you claiming there is a "consensus" among scientists concerning glabla warming?

Please say, yes.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2008, 10:42:58 AM »


Climatology is an infant science -- less than 30 years old.  Remember Global Cooling in the 70's?  Same folks.



Not true. The theory of global cooling which gained publicity in the 1970s was not widely accepted by scientists at the time. It was mostly a media phenomenon.

Source of your assertion?  Liar.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2008, 10:46:36 AM »
SUBJECT:
Glacial Ice Melt

POSSIBLE CAUSES:
Magma, measuring 1000's of degrees
Naturally occurring cyclical temperature shifts
Anthropogenic global warming measured in tenths-of-degrees


Of all the things listed that could be causing glacier melting why should I view mankind as THE threat?


Silly rabbit.  That's where the money and the power is!
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2008, 10:53:03 AM »
IPCC: flawed data - http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=12088

IPCC: flawed review process - http://groups.google.com/group/alt.global-warming/browse_thread/thread/45d3617c27d5ce63

As bad as the Hockey Stick.

Over 400 scientists, including many fromt the IPCC, seek to stave of anthropogenic GW bogey man - http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport
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Offline Happy Fun Ball

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2008, 10:54:28 AM »
Not true. The theory of global cooling which gained publicity in the 1970s was not widely accepted by scientists at the time. It was mostly a media phenomenon.
Apparently,
neither
is
global
warming.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 10:58:19 AM by Happy Fun Ball »

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2008, 11:03:45 AM »

Source of your assertion?  Liar.


If the theory of global cooling was widely supported by scientists in the 1970s, then you should have no trouble finding a lot of scientific literature in support of the theory. So, where is it? As far as I know, only one or two studies from the 1970s supported the theory of global cooling.
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2008, 11:04:57 AM »
in fact, anyone that disagrees with the orthodoxy that man's activity is the sole cause of climate change is usually hooted right out of academic circles.

Among scientists who accept the theory of anthropogenic global warming, the most widely accepted view on what is causing that warming is best represented by the IPCC report. According to the IPCC, human activities are the primary cause of global warming, not the sole cause of it.

Please read page 100 of the IPCC FAQ on global warming...

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_FAQs.pdf

Human activities contribute to climate change by causing changes in Earth’s atmosphere in the amounts of greenhouse gases,
aerosols (small particles), and cloudiness. The largest known contribution comes from the burning of fossil fuels, which releases carbon dioxide gas to the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases and aerosols affect climate by altering incoming solar radiation and out-going infrared (thermal) radiation that are part of Earth’s energy balance. Changing the atmospheric abundance or properties of these gases and particles can lead to a warming or cooling of the climate system. Since the start of the industrial era (about 1750), the overall effect of human activities on climate has been a warming influence. The human impact on climate during this era greatly exceeds that due to known changes in natural processes, such as solar changes and volcanic eruptions.




you're trying to divert the focus of the discussion into an argument about your use of the word "primary", and my hyperbolic use of "sole" . . . and I'm not biting.   

if you can't see how the geothermic activity of heretofore unknown volcanoes being significantly linked to glacial melting knocks a primary support out from under the entire global warming extortion industry, then you just haven't been paying attention to the puffed up propaganda that has been paraded around as science for the past decade ot so.



Offline Chris_

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2008, 11:05:38 AM »

Source of your assertion?  Liar.


If the theory of global cooling was widely supported by scientists in the 1970s, then you should have no trouble finding a lot of scientific literature in support of the theory. So, where is it? As far as I know, only one or two studies from the 1970s supported the theory of global cooling.

http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm


http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/nat-geog-1976-11.html

The latter has more sources.

Once again, I tell the truth and you lie.

Liar.
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2008, 11:08:10 AM »
in fact, anyone that disagrees with the orthodoxy that man's activity is the sole cause of climate change is usually hooted right out of academic circles.

Among scientists who accept the theory of anthropogenic global warming, the most widely accepted view on what is causing that warming is best represented by the IPCC report. According to the IPCC, human activities are the primary cause of global warming, not the sole cause of it.

Please read page 100 of the IPCC FAQ on global warming...

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_FAQs.pdf

Human activities contribute to climate change by causing changes in Earth’s atmosphere in the amounts of greenhouse gases,
aerosols (small particles), and cloudiness. The largest known contribution comes from the burning of fossil fuels, which releases carbon dioxide gas to the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases and aerosols affect climate by altering incoming solar radiation and out-going infrared (thermal) radiation that are part of Earth’s energy balance. Changing the atmospheric abundance or properties of these gases and particles can lead to a warming or cooling of the climate system. Since the start of the industrial era (about 1750), the overall effect of human activities on climate has been a warming influence. The human impact on climate during this era greatly exceeds that due to known changes in natural processes, such as solar changes and volcanic eruptions.




Jeeze, a study by a body that will get tons of money and, more importantly, power, by finding GW is caused by humans!  Wow!  I think you will have to wake me up from my fainting by surprise!!

[snip]



this is the same bunch of bug eyed zealots that shared algore's nobel prize last year.  that should tell you all you need to know about them.

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Antarctic volcanoes identified as a possible culprit in glacier melting
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2008, 11:19:52 AM »


http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm



An article in Newsweek is not what most people consider to be scientific literature.

Quote
http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/nat-geog-1976-11.html


Um... I hate to be the one to throw the cold water, but... the www.wmconnolley.org.uk page seems to refute, not support, your suggestion that the theory of global cooling was widely accepted by scientists. From the page...

I would summarise the Nat Geog article as supporting my POV: its non-commital. You could easily find out-of-context quotes to support your own POV, and so could I. So I'll do my best to quote honestly. The Nat Geog stuff is pretty similar to the Newsweek article from about the same time but much longer, and probbaly better.

To begin I'll show you the last two pages of the article and the graph thereon. Click on the thumbnail for a larger version (1200x900). Despite my poor photo (sorry about the flash; apologies about the appalling state of our carpet) I'm sure you can see the graph at the top with two dotted continuations at the end, one marked "warmer", the other "cooler". This is a pretty fair summary: no prediction (other than change, I suppose) and a clear indication of uncertainty.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 11:41:40 AM by The Night Owl »
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