Author Topic: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses  (Read 16397 times)

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Offline Chris_

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'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« on: November 12, 2008, 06:56:53 AM »
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'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses

WASHINGTON, D.C. —  You better watch out. There is a new combatant in the Christmas wars.

Ads proclaiming, "Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness' sake," will appear on Washington, D.C., buses starting next week and running through December. The American Humanist Association unveiled the provocative $40,000 holiday ad campaign Tuesday.

In lifting lyrics from "Santa Claus is Coming to Town," the Washington-based group is wading into what has become a perennial debate over commercialism, religion in the public square and the meaning of Christmas.

"We are trying to reach our audience, and sometimes in order to reach an audience, everybody has to hear you," said Fred Edwords, spokesman for the humanist group. "Our reason for doing it during the holidays is there are an awful lot of agnostics, atheists and other types of non-theists who feel a little alone during the holidays because of its association with traditional religion."

To that end, the ads and posters will include a link to a Web site that will seek to connect and organize like-minded thinkers in the D.C. area, Edwords said.

Edwords said the purpose isn't to argue that God doesn't exist or change minds about a deity, although "we are trying to plant a seed of rational thought and critical thinking and questioning in people's minds."

1.  Apparently they think that those of us who believe in God aren't rational or capable of critical thinking.   :whatever:
2.  These signs are on city buses.  One could easily use the liberal's arguement that this is an endorsement of athiesm...the same arguement used to disallow anti-abortion license plates around the country that liberals say is an endoresment of religion.   :whatever:

Nice.

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Offline franksolich

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 06:59:10 AM »
Apparently they think that those of us who believe in God aren't rational or capable of critical thinking.

You got that right, sir.

I've noticed, in both real life and on the internet, that those who refuse to acknowledge God are some of the most distraughtly emotional people one can meet.
apres moi, le deluge

Offline jinxmchue

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 12:04:38 PM »
It's so nice they're spending all that money on this really important ad campaign instead of doing silly things like helping the poor.

Offline Wineslob

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 12:21:48 PM »
There is a very simple answer to the question at hand................why not?
“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

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Offline TheSarge

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 01:45:34 PM »
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Why believe in a god?

Because the alternative isn't pretty.
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The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Chris_

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 01:48:43 PM »
If you don't believe in God then you are the sole arbiter of what is "good" and "bad."  You must by definition be amoral and only "good" because it makes you feel good to be so.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008, 03:48:51 PM »
If you don't believe in God then you are the sole arbiter of what is "good" and "bad."  You must by definition be amoral and only "good" because it makes you feel good to be so.

Morals come from consequences.... as long as humans innately receive displeasure and pain from the consequences of things like murder and rape, we will always consider them immoral or bad.  As long as we innately receive pleasure from the positive consequences of doing kind things, helping people, and treating them as we want to be treated, those things will always be moral.   
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 03:50:55 PM by rubliw »

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 09:37:14 PM »
Morals come from consequences.... as long as humans innately receive displeasure and pain from the consequences of things like murder and rape, we will always consider them immoral or bad.  As long as we innately receive pleasure from the positive consequences of doing kind things, helping people, and treating them as we want to be treated, those things will always be moral.   
What about all those humans that derive great pleasure from murder, rape and other sins, including the sexual sins society accepts?  Are those things moral for those that enjoy them?  What about people like Scrooge, that hate to give to others and find it painful if they must?  Does that make giving a sin for some?
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Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 11:28:40 PM »
What about all those humans that derive great pleasure from murder, rape and other sins, including the sexual sins society accepts?  Are those things moral for those that enjoy them?  What about people like Scrooge, that hate to give to others and find it painful if they must?  Does that make giving a sin for some?

I was referring to the consequences of actions, not necessarily pleasure derived out of the action itself.  Morality is (or should be, if its reasonable) directly connected suffering and well being of individuals and society.

You should be able to understand what I mean if you can list some major examples of moral values that can only be derived from examining religious doctrine, but not by looking at consequences of following/not following those values.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008, 09:32:23 AM »
I was referring to the consequences of actions, not necessarily pleasure derived out of the action itself.  Morality is (or should be, if its reasonable) directly connected suffering and well being of individuals and society.

You should be able to understand what I mean if you can list some major examples of moral values that can only be derived from examining religious doctrine, but not by looking at consequences of following/not following those values.
I can't think of any moral values that can be derived from religious doctrine that have no consequences.  If God told us not to do something, there was always a reason and a consequence.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2008, 09:41:30 AM »
I grew up in a household with a fundamentalist Catholic mom, and an agnostic dad who had a philosophy degree (from Jesuit college no less).    He made us question everything with regard to our faith.   

I could get up on a soap box and expand on that ad nauseum, but the bottom line is I don't have a problem with this at all as God would rather you believe in him based on your own soul searching and not because it is something you embraced as you know no other way (i.e. raised to believe in a certain religion).

I have significant issues with my religion, but at the end of the day the Catholic religion is the one I feel most comfortable with -- feels right to me.   

If these ads make the masses embark on their own soul searching then I applaud their efforts and recognize this ad campaign as something God would certainly approve of.


Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2008, 11:40:44 AM »
I can't think of any moral values that can be derived from religious doctrine that have no consequences.  If God told us not to do something, there was always a reason and a consequence.

Then in that sense, you should be able to see what I am saying.  By the very nature of the fact that we experience negative and positive consequences (individually and collectively) we actually learn and know a universal morality, no scripture necessary.  For example, murder isnt universally wrong because we all read the same scriptures... its wrong because it spreads misery, pain, and too much of those things makes society un-livable.  Sexual ethics can also be derived this way, as well as ethics for individual liberty and freedom.  It shouldn't be much of  a stretch to think that generally there are good practical reasons, grounded in the natural world, for moral codes aside from the 'doing what God wants' factor.  This is evidenced by the difficulty in positing examples of real moral behaviour that when followed... provide no practical utility what-so-ever.

Unless human nature changes to such a degree so that we love to experience consequences that we, at present, try to avoid, then these things will always be wrong.   Seeing as how most of the things we try to avoid, or enshrine in our moral codes, are things that hinder or benefit our survival I don't think we really need to worry about that happening.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 03:16:46 PM by rubliw »

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2008, 03:49:04 PM »
Then in that sense, you should be able to see what I am saying.  By the very nature of the fact that we experience negative and positive consequences (individually and collectively) we actually learn and know a universal morality, no scripture necessary.  For example, murder isnt universally wrong because we all read the same scriptures... its wrong because it spreads misery, pain, and too much of those things makes society un-livable.  Sexual ethics can also be derived this way, as well as ethics for individual liberty and freedom.  It shouldn't be much of  a stretch to think that generally there are good practical reasons, grounded in the natural world, for moral codes aside from the 'doing what God wants' factor.  This is evidenced by the difficulty in positing examples of real moral behaviour that when followed... provide no practical utility what-so-ever.

Unless human nature changes to such a degree so that we love to experience consequences that we, at present, try to avoid, then these things will always be wrong.   Seeing as how most of the things we try to avoid, or enshrine in our moral codes, are things that hinder or benefit our survival I don't think we really need to worry about that happening.
Strangely enough, though, in a world that is not taught God's morals, sexual ethics are nearly non-existant, STD's are rampant, abortion kills more people every year than war, and many are trying desperately to pass laws that would legitimize immoral sexual acts. 
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Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2008, 09:39:51 PM »
Strangely enough, though, in a world that is not taught God's morals, sexual ethics are nearly non-existant, STD's are rampant, abortion kills more people every year than war, and many are trying desperately to pass laws that would legitimize immoral sexual acts. 

Well, actually, the world you describe is actually one where "God's morals" have been taught for generations.  If any restraint is to be honoured on our sexual behaviour, it will come after lessons learned from experiencing different consequences of that behaviour... scriptural sexual ethics have been tried, and have failed, and have been discarded.

Sure if everyone followed the sexual ethics to the T in the Bible (perhaps we can leave out the subjugation and subordination of women) you might have a society with little or no sexual woes (although I don't think this is true, but I'm playing 'God's Advocate' here) but such a society is about as realistic as the theoretical economic idea of the 'pure free market'... such things do not actually exist.   The Biblical sexual ethics system fails because it does not acknowledge that there never can be, nor will be a reality in which its 'pure' vision can exist.  Such systems that refuse to make compromises (more flexible or utilitarian stances on birth control, abortion etc) ultimately create many unnecessary negative consequences.   The sexual ethics (or lack there of from your perspective) of today was a rebellion against those unnecessary negative consequences resulting from the 'pure' Biblical sexual ethics... being reactionary it has probably swung too far in the opposite direction as a whole... defined itself as being opposite the old ethics, instead of the looking for a more correct, better ethic.  Actually, I think slowly but surely we are growing up a little bit... becoming a little more sober about our sexual ethics for the first time since the 60's... and we have consequences to thank for this sobering up..  its an every two steps forward, 1.9 steps back sort of thing...  slowly but surely.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 09:47:57 PM by rubliw »

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2008, 10:59:38 PM »
Well, actually, the world you describe is actually one where "God's morals" have been taught for generations.  If any restraint is to be honoured on our sexual behaviour, it will come after lessons learned from experiencing different consequences of that behaviour... scriptural sexual ethics have been tried, and have failed, and have been discarded.

Sure if everyone followed the sexual ethics to the T in the Bible (perhaps we can leave out the subjugation and subordination of women) you might have a society with little or no sexual woes (although I don't think this is true, but I'm playing 'God's Advocate' here) but such a society is about as realistic as the theoretical economic idea of the 'pure free market'... such things do not actually exist.   The Biblical sexual ethics system fails because it does not acknowledge that there never can be, nor will be a reality in which its 'pure' vision can exist.  Such systems that refuse to make compromises (more flexible or utilitarian stances on birth control, abortion etc) ultimately create many unnecessary negative consequences.   The sexual ethics (or lack there of from your perspective) of today was a rebellion against those unnecessary negative consequences resulting from the 'pure' Biblical sexual ethics... being reactionary it has probably swung too far in the opposite direction as a whole... defined itself as being opposite the old ethics, instead of the looking for a more correct, better ethic.  Actually, I think slowly but surely we are growing up a little bit... becoming a little more sober about our sexual ethics for the first time since the 60's... and we have consequences to thank for this sobering up..  its an every two steps forward, 1.9 steps back sort of thing...  slowly but surely.
70% of Americans have no clue what the Bible actually says.  God's morals are not taught.  If they were, people would have a clear understanding of, for instance, the reasons to avoid murdering our children.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2008, 10:00:24 AM »
70% of Americans have no clue what the Bible actually says.  God's morals are not taught.  If they were, people would have a clear understanding of, for instance, the reasons to avoid murdering our children.

Being ignorant of what Christianity as a whole thinks of abortion is about as hard to do these days as being ignorant of the fact that cigarettes cause lung cancer.  Same with many of the sexual ethics of Christianity... many of which were ingrained, and still are to some extent, in our society for a long time... especially in the forms of taboo.  Almost all people are smart enough to realize murdering children is not OK... with or without the Bible.  In this case the Bible tells us what we already know.   What it remains silent on is when life begins... so if you are referring to abortion here the Bible really isn't any guide at all.  

Everyone knows murder is wrong.  Whether abortion constitutes murder or not hinges on whatever premise you accept about the beginning of personhood/life.  Thats not really a question of morals at all, its more philosophical or even scientific.
 

« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 10:08:08 AM by rubliw »

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2008, 08:04:53 PM »
Being ignorant of what Christianity as a whole thinks of abortion is about as hard to do these days as being ignorant of the fact that cigarettes cause lung cancer.  Same with many of the sexual ethics of Christianity... many of which were ingrained, and still are to some extent, in our society for a long time... especially in the forms of taboo.  Almost all people are smart enough to realize murdering children is not OK... with or without the Bible.  In this case the Bible tells us what we already know.   What it remains silent on is when life begins... so if you are referring to abortion here the Bible really isn't any guide at all.  

Everyone knows murder is wrong.  Whether abortion constitutes murder or not hinges on whatever premise you accept about the beginning of personhood/life.  Thats not really a question of morals at all, its more philosophical or even scientific.
 



Quote
Luk 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,


 Luk 1:25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on [me], to take away my reproach among men.


 Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

>>>

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


 Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.


 Luk 1:43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


 Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

>>>

Luk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.


 Luk 1:57 Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.
 

Quote
Christmas also boldly proclaims that life begins at conception. While Jesus was still in the womb, less than three months in utero, the Bible records that Elizabeth’s baby “leaped in her womb.” Think of the profound pro-life statement that was made at that moment -- one preborn baby (John) recognized the personhood of another preborn baby (Jesus)!


Thank you for perfectly proving my point that many Americans have no clue what the Bible actually says, God's morals are not taught, and therefore mankind has decided we can make up our own minds about right and wrong...and we're obviously lousy at the job.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2008, 08:43:23 PM »

Thank you for perfectly proving my point that many Americans have no clue what the Bible actually says, God's morals are not taught, and therefore mankind has decided we can make up our own minds about right and wrong...and we're obviously lousy at the job.

You have to engage in quite a bit of dubious poetic license to get the idea that personhood begins at conception out of that.   Many in the early church believed it was only after the body was fully formed and gained sensation could it be imbued with a soul.... Augustine for one.  Theres much precedent for that idea in Mosaic law.    The Bible could have clearly stated that abortion is wrong.  It doesn't.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 08:51:21 PM by rubliw »

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2008, 08:51:05 PM »
You have to engage in quite a bit of poetic license to get the idea that personhood begins at conception out of that.   Many in the early church believed it was only after the body was fully formed and gained sensation could it be imbued with a soul.... Augustine for one.


It's not difficult for anyone who reads the verses.  Christ was obviously within the first trimeseter of His mother's pregnancy, probably within the first few weeks, yet John recognises Him.  Yep, really hard to conclude that both unborn children were persons...NOT!  Give it up, wilbur.  You're always in the wrong...and you know it. 
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Offline Chris_

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2008, 09:02:41 PM »
You have to engage in quite a bit of dubious poetic license to get the idea that personhood begins at conception out of that.   Many in the early church believed it was only after the body was fully formed and gained sensation could it be imbued with a soul.... Augustine for one.  Theres much precedent for that idea in Mosaic law.    The Bible could have clearly stated that abortion is wrong.  It doesn't.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill"  In every version of the 10 Commandments.

It seems clear to me.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2008, 09:22:10 PM »
It's not difficult for anyone who reads the verses.  Christ was obviously within the first trimeseter of His mother's pregnancy, probably within the first few weeks, yet John recognises Him.  Yep, really hard to conclude that both unborn children were persons...NOT!  Give it up, wilbur.  You're always in the wrong...and you know it. 

The passage only seems a clear vindication to you because you approach the text with your own biased context and pull out a dubious inference when, again.. the Bible could have easily and clearly stated in no uncertain terms that abortion was wrong.  Why leave such an important issue up to inference?  You're seeing what you want to see. This is also a 'miraculous' pregnancy of a foretold prophet... fetuses also don't typically comprehend the words that are spoken to their mothers, yet this one did.. quite the special case.  The NT makes no clarification on old Mosaic law in the OT that really show no major concern over a developing fetus.

Offline Chris_

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2008, 09:39:43 PM »
The passage only seems a clear vindication to you because you approach the text with your own biased context and pull out a dubious inference when, again.. the Bible could have easily and clearly stated in no uncertain terms that abortion was wrong.  Why leave such an important issue up to inference?  You're seeing what you want to see. This is also a 'miraculous' pregnancy of a foretold prophet... fetuses also don't typically comprehend the words that are spoken to their mothers, yet this one did.. quite the special case.  The NT makes no clarification on old Mosaic law in the OT that really show no major concern over a developing fetus.

Unless you speak Aramaic and have looked at the original texts you are also approaching the Bible with your preconceived notions.  As I said, there isn't a lot of possible cross-language contamination with the command -- not a verse -- "thou shalt not kill."
 
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2008, 09:53:47 PM »
Unless you speak Aramaic and have looked at the original texts you are also approaching the Bible with your preconceived notions.  As I said, there isn't a lot of possible cross-language contamination with the command -- not a verse -- "thou shalt not kill."
 

Well, yea... the point not addressed by the Bible is when life actually begins....

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2008, 10:23:56 PM »
Well, yea... the point not addressed by the Bible is when life actually begins....
Then a literal interpretation would be at inception.  The idea of self-abortion is so bizarre that it didn't make any more sense to put it in the Bible than it did to put the Pythagorean Theorem in there.
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Offline rubliw

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Re: 'Why Believe in a God?' Ad Campaign Launches on D.C. Buses
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2008, 10:42:09 PM »
Then a literal interpretation would be at inception.  The idea of self-abortion is so bizarre that it didn't make any more sense to put it in the Bible than it did to put the Pythagorean Theorem in there.


The old testament makes mention of punishment for a person should they accidentally end an early pregnancy of a woman... with a punishment of a fine.  Not quite the same as abortion, but it makes a specific mention of how to regard a fetus, and makes specific mention restitution to be paid for damaging one.  Early Christian philosophers certainly talked about it.

Anyhow, this has all gotten side tracked.  The Bible tells us not to kill.  We knew this anyway.  'Life begins at conception' does not really seem like a moral to me... and that was my original point.  Its more like a scientific statement.  'Do not murder' is the moral that variably applies to a fetus, depending on ones very scientific/philosophic view of when life begins.  And this was all yet another digression, but I don't feel like going back to read from what.  I'm tired.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 10:44:16 PM by rubliw »