Author Topic: The bigoted social conservative  (Read 4320 times)

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Offline CharlesD

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The bigoted social conservative
« on: September 27, 2008, 06:25:36 PM »
I guess this has as much to with religion as any other area on here, and no doubt it has been discussed already, but I'm new here and my inherent laziness is keeping me from reading back to see any past discussions of this subject.  I'm on some other boards that aren't specifically political in nature, but which allow political discussion, and I have been accused of outright bigotry on more than one occasion because I am a Christian and a pretty strong social conservative, views that pretty much come out of my Christian faith. 

So I've been having some interesting debates lately about what exactly is bigotry and why folks on the left seem so quick to apply it to people who share my views.  I have a pretty narrow view of what constitutes a bigot, and that is someone who believes in the inherent superiority of his own ethnic group and that other groups are inferior based solely on whatever genetic traits run in their group.  It would seem though, that the left has a broader definition of bigotry that includes disapproving of someone's behavior, or even thinking that there is an objective standard of what is right and wrong.  If you oppose the homosexual lifestyle, you hate gays;  you are a bigot.  I defend myself by pointing out that I don't have anything against gays per se, but that I just don't agree with their behavior and I don't think the state should be recognizing two men as a married couple.  They can't argue the point with me, but must resort to saying I'm a bigot or a homophobe. 

It seems that the left is trying to make this out to be a civil rights issue and put gays on the same footing as ethnic minorities.  I see a big distinction here.  I black man is a black man and always will be a black man.  There's not a darn thing he can do to change that.  If I go around saying that black folk are somehow intrinsically inferior to me because I'm white, then we have a problem.  I'm a bigot.  But that narrow definition isn't enough.  If I object to an affirmative action program on the grounds that I believe it doesn't put everyone on a level playing field, I'm accused of hating minorities.  If I object to a behavior that is more prevalent in a certain group, I must hate that group.  Am I a racist because I don't like hip hop, can't stand to see these young people with their pants hanging halfway down, and think that able bodied people on welfare should get jobs, regardless of color?  Can I say that I don't agree with the chosen lifestyle of a homosexual without hating the homosexual?  That is the rub though.  I view it as a chosen lifestyle while the left, and an ever growing segment of society as a whole, sees it as an unchangeable trait no different than ethnicity. 

It seems now that to object to anything a person does constitutes hatred toward that person.  Remember that if you are a social conservative you are a bigot.  An accusation of bigotry is much easier than actually trying to debate the issue at hand.  It strikes me as not only wrong, but intellectually lazy, to resort to calling anyone you disagree with a bigot instead of trying to argue the merits of your position. 
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2008, 06:37:45 PM »
I think many of us see the same thing.  I have noticed, and often mention, the huge anti-Christian bigotry and prejudice evident from many.  On another board, I've run across a poster who calls Sarah Palin a "rapture cultist," as though this belief were somehow unusual.  The amount of hatred aimed at Christians and conservatives is amazing, especially given the left's position of "love, tolerance and diversity."  Their "love, tolerance and diversity" certainly does not include Christians, strong conservatives, white males, or unborn children.   ::)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 06:45:51 PM by MrsSmith »
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 02:25:34 PM »
I hear what you're saying.  It's going to happen, you already know that to be true, so when it happens keep these words of Jesus in mind...

Quote from:
Matt 5:11-12

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you

... knowing that you are standing up for what is right.

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Offline Chris_

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2008, 07:26:32 PM »
Quote
So I've been having some interesting debates lately about what exactly is bigotry and why folks on the left seem so quick to apply it to people who share my views

To the left, a bigot is anyone and everyone who disagrees with their views (even other leftists with different agendae).  Just like "rich" means "anyone who makes more than me."

It is a result of the complete inability of leftists to think and reason.


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Offline CharlesD

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2008, 11:28:17 AM »
Look at this exchange I had this morning on another site.  Someone started it by going off on how Sarah Palin believes that homosexuality is a chosen behavior.  I responded with:

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The choice is in the behavior, at least the way I see it.  Standard Christian teaching is that homosexual behavior is wrong.  The same goes for heteros outside of marriage.  My being attracted to women did not excuse me from controlling my urge and engaging in that behavior at the proper time and place.  I never read in the Bible that it was a sin to be attracted to another man, only to act on that attraction and actually have sex with another man.  That is a person's choice whether or not to engage in that behavior.

Then there is this response:

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For one thing, not everyone is a Christian in this country.  There are wide ranges of denominations and religious beliefs out there or lack thereof. It's why we have ..... or are SUPPOSED to have separation of church and state. One of the principles that America was founded on. One religion should not dictate the rights of all people in the country.  Face it people, there are gay Americans and they deserve equal rights in this country, regardless of anyone's religious beliefs.

If you think homosexuality is wrong ..... then don't be a homosexual. What gives anyone the right to to take away equal rights to those that are?

Then here is my response to that:

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For starters, I never said that gays shouldn't have equal rights, but that I should have the equal right to believe that there is something wrong with what they do in the bedroom.  That is the standard Christian teaching, yet when a professed Christian states that belief, everyone goes and has a fit.  The question you have to ask is did Palin enact any anti gay legislation in Alaska.  Look at the track record to see where the person might go in the future.

But what I don't like is someone saying that there is something wrong with the point of view that homosexual behavior is wrong.  By believing that, I'm not saying that gays should be discriminated against, and law already protects them.   I might hire a commissioned sales person in the next few months and I am not allowed by law to refuse to hire someone just because he is gay.  I'm also not allowed to pay him less or to fire him for that reason.  The last time I checked, it wasn't against the law for two gay men to have sex, but it is against the law for me to use that as criteria for a hiring decision.

Anyway, the original point of my bringing this up was just to counter the idea that we should somehow be surprised or shocked when Palin says that she believes homosexual behavior is a chosen behavior.  If she claims to be a Christian, that is the position that would be expected.  We have had plenty of other politicians who held that view and it didn't hinder their ability to lead.

Then there is this very well thought out response to what I said.  Someone missed my whole point:

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You might not like it, but most enlightened people aren't going to look at bigotry very kindly. Quite frankly your statements aren't the sorts of things that oughta be said in polite company. And just to be clear, I'm not saying you can't say them, just that it's really classless and kind of sad that you feel like you can so brazenly talk about your distaste for a significant segment of the population. Most people wouldn't go onto a message board like this and start spouting racism. Your anti-gay statements? They're the same thing.

I hope Palin is very open about her religious beliefs. There's a lot of this country that doesn't realize just how bizarre pentecostal churches really are, I think because you only find them in certain areas. It's a church that definitely shouldn't be offering up presidential candidates, not if they are true believers.

I'm sure a lot of people here have read The Handmaid's Tale. That's what I've had in my head since John McCain nominated Sarah Palin. She's a true believer.

See what I mean?  You don't agree with the behavior of someone and you are a bigot who hates that person.  My response to that was this:

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So my belief that the BEHAVIOR is wrong is somehow an anti-gay statement?  I also believe that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is wrong.  Does that make me anti-hetero?  That's why I keep emphasizing the word BEHAVIOR.  If you disapprove of something your kids are doing, you are against the BEHAVIOR, not the person.  Why is that so difficult a concept for some people to grasp?  If I don't approve of something that some people are doing, I somehow have a distaste for that segment of the population?  That is so ridiculous it's almost laughable.  I don't agree with what they are DOING.  What a person DOES and what the person IS are two different things.  It's not even close to racism;  not only is it not on the same page, it's not even in the same book.  A racist hates people for who they intrinsically are.  I think certain BEHAVIORS are wrong.  How is that even close?  It seems that tolerance applies to everyone except Christians.  I am not a bigot or classless.  I just have the audacity to actually express my beliefs publicly and to defend another Christian who did the same thing.  Once again, disapproving of the BEHAVIOR of a person is not the same as hating the person.  It doesn't take a mental giant to grasp that simple concept.

Mr. clueless lib has the following response, showing that he completely missed my point.

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Bigot (wiki):

"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own"

You are very clearly intolerant. The fact that you feel comfortable saying homophobic things in a public forum shows that. The fact that you think gays should just choose not to act on their gayness is intolerant.

The good thing is that this kind of thing isn't going to last forever. The people who believe the things that you believe are becoming fewer and fewer. Each generation is more tolerant than the last, and I can't imagine we'll have any nutjobs comparable to Sarah Palin running for federal office in the future. Not if the Republicans want to ever win another election.

And the debate goes on.  I am quickly losing patience with people who can't grasp a very simple concept. 
"To those who cite the First Amendment as reason for excluding God from more and more of our institutions and everyday life, may I just say: The First Amendment of the Constitution was not written to protect the people of this country from religious values; it was written to protect religious values from government tyranny."
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Offline CactusCarlos

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 12:06:28 PM »
Quote
I am quickly losing patience with people who can't grasp a very simple concept.

Maybe it's not that they can't it but more like they won't allow themselves to get it. 

Remember, they're enlightened and we're the dolts.  :whatever:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 12:12:23 PM »
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:6 KJV
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Offline CharlesD

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 01:57:14 PM »
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:6 KJV


Pretty good advice.  Sometimes debating liberals is like mental calisthenics, just a warm up for the brain.  It's not overly taxing on the mental processes but gets things loosened up enough for some real work. 
"To those who cite the First Amendment as reason for excluding God from more and more of our institutions and everyday life, may I just say: The First Amendment of the Constitution was not written to protect the people of this country from religious values; it was written to protect religious values from government tyranny."
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 06:36:53 PM »
Quote
Bigot (wiki):

"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own"

Quote
Quite frankly your statements aren't the sorts of things that oughta be said in polite company. And just to be clear, I'm not saying you can't say them, just that it's really classless and kind of sad that you feel like you can so brazenly talk about your distaste for a significant segment of the population. Most people wouldn't go onto a message board like this and start spouting racism. Your anti-gay statements? They're the same thing.
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You are very clearly intolerant. The fact that you feel comfortable saying homophobic things in a public forum shows that. The fact that you think gays should just choose not to act on their gayness is intolerant.

Quite frankly, statements against Christian beliefs aren't the sorts of things that oughta be said in polite company.  And just to be clear, I'm not saying you can't say them, just that it's really classless and kind of sad that you feel you can so brazenly talk about your distate for a huge segment of the population.  Most people wouldn't go onto a message board like this and start spout prejudices.  Your anti-Christian statements?  They're the same thing.
...
You are clearly intolerant.  The fact that you feel comfortable saying anti-Christian things in a public forum  shows that.  The fact that you think Christians should just choose not to speak about their beliefs is intolerant.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2008, 04:26:29 PM »
Quote from:
The good thing is that this kind of thing isn't going to last forever.

That's true, but in ways your opponent isn't going to like for eternity.

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Offline Willow

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2008, 01:04:23 PM »
To the left, a bigot is anyone and everyone who disagrees with their views (even other leftists with different agendae).  Just like "rich" means "anyone who makes more than me."

It is a result of the complete inability of leftists to think and reason.







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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: The bigoted social conservative
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 09:11:17 AM »
Anyone who claims homosexuality is an exclusively genetic trait is ignorant or lying. History is riddled with cultures that incolcate homosexuality.

Even if in instances where it "might" by genetic that doesn't make it any more desireable than a predilection towards--say--necrophilia or bestiality. Celebrating variance for the aske of variance is not wise it's merely fashion.

And celebrate we do. You can find more positive gay roles on TV than their mere 2% of the population and virtually no positive Christian roles even though 60+ % consider themselves Christian.

And there is the myth of gay rights. Nothing in the laws forbid gays from going to church, accessing the media, publicly protesting, voting, holding office etc. The constitution protects political rights and the rights of conscience; not the right to poke your genitalia wherever the urge takes you.

Contrast that with the incessant liberal blandishments about the so-called seperation of church and state and they quickly reveal themselves as efforts to politically marginalize Christians.
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