Author Topic: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU  (Read 40652 times)

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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2008, 04:59:36 PM »


Psalm 111:7,8 seem to disagree with you.

Uh, no. Your interpretation of Psalm 111:7,8 disagrees with me. A story can be figuratively true even if it is not literally true.

Not quite, oh Liberal One.  The words are very plain.  The Sermon on the Mound was not a reading of free-thought poetry. 

You are wrong.  You have always been wrong.  And you will never let the last word rest.  Guess what?  I won't either. 

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2008, 05:20:55 PM »
Not quite, oh Liberal One.  The words are very plain.  The Sermon on the Mound was not a reading of free-thought poetry. 


The words of Psalm 111:7,8 are very plain but, in my opinion, none of those plain words indicate that stories in the Bible must be accepted as being literally true.

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You are wrong.  You have always been wrong.  And you will never let the last word rest.  Guess what?  I won't either.

How do you know that I'm wrong? Are you infallible?

   
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 05:22:27 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline djones520

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2008, 03:00:29 AM »
I don't know if I really wanna get into this.  I want to, but I know everything I present will just be ignored for the most part so it won't really matter anyways.

It's hard to debate a matter when you've always got the fall back of "because God willed it."
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2008, 07:55:55 AM »

The words of Psalm 111:7,8 are very plain but, in my opinion, none of those plain words indicate that stories in the Bible must be accepted as being literally true.

No, that isn't your "opinion".  It is what you need in order to continue being obtuse.  Words have meaning.  The Words Jesus spoke plainly tell us we can trust and believe in the accuracy of God's word (everything you are denying).

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How do you know that I'm wrong? Are you infallible?

Pretty much.  Especially in this situation, considering the redundant and continuously denying nature of the competing statements.

   

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2008, 08:21:03 AM »

If the viewing of the movie will be completed, on Thursday, then you saw it Wednesday or before.


Uh, no. Saying that something will be completed on a given day can mean that it will be completed by that day, but it can also mean that it will be completed at some point during that day. If I tell you that I will finish watching a set of DVDs on Thursday, I might mean that I will finish watching them by Thursday but I could also mean that I will finish watching them at some point on Thursday.
To use your example,
if the viewing of the movie is completed
and
it's Thursday,
you saw it Wednesday or before.

See how simple that is?
 :whatever:
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2008, 09:53:40 AM »
No, that isn't your "opinion".  It is what you need in order to continue being obtuse.  Words have meaning.  The Words Jesus spoke plainly tell us we can trust and believe in the accuracy of God's word (everything you are denying).

The notion that God is always honest with humans has always struck me as odd. A supreme being is under no obligation to be truthful to anyone or about anything.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 10:06:57 AM by The Night Owl »
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2008, 10:05:03 AM »
To use your example,
if the viewing of the movie is completed
and
it's Thursday,
you saw it Wednesday or before.



So, if I say that I'm going to a party on Thursday, what I really mean is that I'm going before Thursday comes? Give me a break.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Why can't you just admit that the various versions of the Bible contain differences? 
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2008, 11:19:50 AM »
To use your example,
if the viewing of the movie is completed
and
it's Thursday,
you saw it Wednesday or before.



So, if I say that I'm going to a party on Thursday, what I really mean is that I'm going before Thursday comes? Give me a break.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Why can't you just admit that the various versions of the Bible contain differences? 
Wording varies, meaning never does.

You can't you just admit you are wrong?
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2008, 11:20:53 AM »
No, that isn't your "opinion".  It is what you need in order to continue being obtuse.  Words have meaning.  The Words Jesus spoke plainly tell us we can trust and believe in the accuracy of God's word (everything you are denying).

The notion that God is always honest with humans has always struck me as odd. A supreme being is under no obligation to be truthful to anyone or about anything.
You find honesty odd?
God owes us nothing.  All we receive is from Grace.
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2008, 11:27:28 AM »
No, that isn't your "opinion".  It is what you need in order to continue being obtuse.  Words have meaning.  The Words Jesus spoke plainly tell us we can trust and believe in the accuracy of God's word (everything you are denying).

The notion that God is always honest with humans has always struck me as odd. A supreme being is under no obligation to be truthful to anyone or about anything.

Please put on the orange jacket.  You are enterring the deep end.

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2008, 11:27:57 AM »

You find honesty odd?
God owes us nothing.  All we receive is from Grace.


I find the human expectation of honesty from a supreme being to be odd.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2008, 11:29:38 AM »
No, that isn't your "opinion".  It is what you need in order to continue being obtuse.  Words have meaning.  The Words Jesus spoke plainly tell us we can trust and believe in the accuracy of God's word (everything you are denying).

The notion that God is always honest with humans has always struck me as odd. A supreme being is under no obligation to be truthful to anyone or about anything.

Please put on the orange jacket.  You are enterring the deep end.
The lack of understanding runs deep, don't it?
I do feel sorry for him.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2008, 11:33:33 AM »

Wording varies, meaning never does.

You can't you just admit you are wrong?


The meaning of God's words may not vary, but mankind's interpretation of words can vary quite a lot. The difference between us is that I believe that the Bible is open to intrepretation and you seem to think that your interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 11:36:58 AM by The Night Owl »
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2008, 11:35:11 AM »

The lack of understanding runs deep, don't it?
I do feel sorry for him.


Feel free to explain to me why I should expect honesty from a supreme being.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2008, 11:36:11 AM »

The lack of understanding runs deep, don't it?
I do feel sorry for him.


Feel free to explain to me why I should expect honesty from a supreme being.
Only need one word.



Faith.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2008, 11:38:51 AM »

Wording varies, meaning never does.

You can't you just admit you are wrong?


The meaning of God's words may not vary, but mankind's interpretation of words can vary quite a lot. The difference between us is that I believe the Bible is open to intrepretation and you seem to think that your interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one.
I have found nothing to contradict my faith.  You adjust your interpretation to fit your pre-existing belief.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2008, 11:48:12 AM »

Only need one word.

Faith.


So, your belief that God is always honest is based purely on faith. Fair enough. I was only wondering if the belief that God is always honest was based on something more than faith.

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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2008, 11:50:03 AM »

Wording varies, meaning never does.

You can't you just admit you are wrong?


The meaning of God's words may not vary, but mankind's interpretation of words can vary quite a lot. The difference between us is that I believe the Bible is open to intrepretation and you seem to think that your interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one.
I have found nothing to contradict my faith.  You adjust your interpretation to fit your pre-existing belief.


Dishonesty is a human thing.  Dishonesty is usually about personal gain.  God has no such needs.  The thought of God being dishonest is a real sidesplitter.  It is pointless.  Completely pointless.

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2008, 11:55:22 AM »


Dishonesty is a human thing.  Dishonesty is usually about personal gain.  God has no such needs.  The thought of God being dishonest is a real sidesplitter.  It is pointless.  Completely pointless.

Correct... Dishonesty is a tactic which is usually used for personal gain... but not always. Sometimes, dishonesty can have a noble purpose. What matters is intent not tactic. So, how do we know that God doesn't use dishonesty for a noble purpose?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2008, 11:59:13 AM »


Dishonesty is a human thing.  Dishonesty is usually about personal gain.  God has no such needs.  The thought of God being dishonest is a real sidesplitter.  It is pointless.  Completely pointless.

Correct... Dishonesty is a tactic which is usually used for personal gain... but not always. Sometimes, dishonesty can have a noble purpose. What matters is intent not tactic. So, how do we know that God doesn't use dishonesty for a noble purpose?
Applying human characteristics to God doesn't work.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.   Proverbs 3:5
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2008, 12:06:26 PM »
Applying human characteristics to God doesn't work.

If the Bible is to be believed, then God and humans share many characteristics. For instance, both God and humans are said to have the ability to love... the ability to get angry... the ability to forgive... etc.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2008, 12:07:42 PM »
Applying human characteristics to God doesn't work.

If the Bible is to be believed, then God and humans share many characteristics. For instance, both God and humans are said to have the ability to love... the ability to get angry... the ability to forgive... etc.
You missed this part.

Quote
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.   Proverbs 3:5
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2008, 12:08:01 PM »


Dishonesty is a human thing.  Dishonesty is usually about personal gain.  God has no such needs.  The thought of God being dishonest is a real sidesplitter.  It is pointless.  Completely pointless.

Correct... Dishonesty is a tactic which is usually used for personal gain... but not always. Sometimes, dishonesty can have a noble purpose. What matters is intent not tactic. So, how do we know that God doesn't use dishonesty for a noble purpose?

What is a "noble lie"?  Any lie is still dishonest and is always tied to the benefit of the liar.  Even a lie to spare someone's feeling is actually a lie to keep the lie teller from having to deal with the hurt feelings of others.  God has no need for such human folly.  

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2008, 12:14:15 PM »
What is a "noble lie"?

Were lies told to Nazis for the purpose of protecting Jews not for a noble purpose? I think that most reasonable people would agree that lies told to protect the innocent from harm are examples of noble lies.

Quote
Any lie is still dishonest and is always tied to the benefit of the liar.  Even a lie to spare someone's feeling is actually a lie to keep the lie teller from having to deal with the hurt feelings of others.  God has no need for such human folly. 

Yes, all lies are examples of dishonesty, but dishonesty does not always serve a selfish purpose.

Lies and dishonesty are basically forms of deception. Deception is nothing more than a tactic. Like any tactic, deception can be used for good and it can be used for evil.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 12:32:22 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2008, 12:24:54 PM »
About the story of Noah...

Pablo Picasso once said that painting is a series of lies meant to express the truth. I view the Bible in the same way that Picasso viewed painting... as a series of lies meant to express the truth. Stories in the Bible do not have to be literally true to be figuratively true or spiritually true. For instance, to believe that God created the universe one need not believe the Biblical claim that he created it in 7 days.

I have never understood why some Christians feel the need to cling to the notion that the Bible is literally true. Faith does not require that stories in the Bible be literally true. All faith requires is that followers believe the spiritual truth.

 ::)

Jesus treated the story of Noah as literal and real, so why shouldn't I?
Because the scientific evidence says there was never a worldwide flood.  Jesus used a LOT of allegory to make His point. He wasn't providing a science text, but rather a roadmap on  how to live your life according to God's wishes.
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