Author Topic: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU  (Read 40655 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jinxmchue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3841
  • Reputation: +114/-26

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2008, 10:38:41 AM »
About the story of Noah...

Pablo Picasso once said that painting is a series of lies meant to express the truth. I view the Bible in the same way that Picasso viewed painting... as a series of lies meant to express the truth. Stories in the Bible do not have to be literally true to be figuratively true or spiritually true. For instance, to believe that God created the universe one need not believe the Biblical claim that he created it in 7 days.

I have never understood why some Christians feel the need to cling to the notion that the Bible is literally true. Faith does not require that stories in the Bible be literally true. All faith requires is that followers believe the spiritual truth.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 10:42:33 AM by The Night Owl »
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline Flame

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4361
  • Reputation: +166/-34
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2008, 11:31:23 AM »
http://conservativeunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114114

Oy.

Yeah, but the sad thing, is that it doesn't take a mention of Noah or creation to make CU look like DU anymore.  Most posts voer there now accomplish that all on their own!!

Offline Lord Undies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11388
  • Reputation: +639/-250
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2008, 11:35:40 AM »
Picasso also said, "God is really only another artist. He invented the giraffe, the elephant and the cat. He has no real style, He just goes on trying other things".    I can see how someone with a limited, but contained, mind could think Picasso was brilliant.  

If the Bible is a series of lies meant to express the spiritual truth, then it is a contradiction to faith.  Fortunately, we who have a broader understanding of who is God do not find it necessary to assign human limitations to Him in order to feel better about ourselves.  

I don't find anything in the Bible unbelievable.  If I did, it would be useless to me.  

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 11:39:41 AM »
About the story of Noah...

Pablo Picasso once said that painting is a series of lies meant to express the truth. I view the Bible in the same way that Picasso viewed painting... as a series of lies meant to express the truth. Stories in the Bible do not have to be literally true to be figuratively true or spiritually true. For instance, to believe that God created the universe one need not believe the Biblical claim that he created it in 7 days.

I have never understood why some Christians feel the need to cling to the notion that the Bible is literally true. Faith does not require that stories in the Bible be literally true. All faith requires is that followers believe the spiritual truth.
If one can believe that God created everything, why is time important?  God is independent of time.  I have no problem at all believing it was done in 6 days.  Note you claim 7 days, but it took only six...read the Bible much?
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 11:52:59 AM »
If one can believe that God created everything, why is time important?  God is independent of time.  I have no problem at all believing it was done in 6 days. 


Exactly my point. If one believes that God created the universe, then the amount of time that God took to create the universe is unimportant.

Quote
Note you claim 7 days, but it took only six...read the Bible much?

According to the Bible, God blessed the universe on the 7th Day. I suppose that if one believes that God's blessing upon the universe was not an important part of creation that one could argue that the universe was created in 6 days.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 11:56:41 AM by The Night Owl »
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 11:59:00 AM »
If one can believe that God created everything, why is time important?  God is independent of time.  I have no problem at all believing it was done in 6 days. 


Exactly my point. If one believes that God created the universe, then the amount of time that God took to create the universe is unimportant.

Quote
Note you claim 7 days, but it took only six...read the Bible much?

According to the Bible, God blessed the universe on the 7th Day. I suppose that if one believes that God's blessing upon the universe was not an important part of creation that one could argue that the universe was created in 6 days.


^  Not quite accurate

Genesis 2:2-3 (NIV)
2  By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3  And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Lord Undies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11388
  • Reputation: +639/-250
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2008, 12:03:58 PM »
If one can believe that God created everything, why is time important?  God is independent of time.  I have no problem at all believing it was done in 6 days. 


Exactly my point. If one believes that God created the universe, then the amount of time that God took to create the universe is unimportant.

Quote
Note you claim 7 days, but it took only six...read the Bible much?

According to the Bible, God blessed the universe on the 7th Day. I suppose that if one believes that God's blessing upon the universe was not an important part of creation that one could argue that the universe was created in 6 days.


Oh, but it is important.  The Bible lays it out very plainly.  God did all the work in six days.  The only thing we are left to wonder is why He took His time.   We know He is unlimited, so why did He do it so incrementally?  What are we to learn from His example?

The seventh day was the day God set aside to rest.  He did not bless Creation on that day.  He blessed that DAY.  

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 12:04:06 PM »
Genesis 2:2-3 (NIV)
2  By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3  And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe on the seventh day. Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe by the seventh day. Who knows for sure which version is correct? Certainly not mankind. Mankind is fallible.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline jinxmchue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3841
  • Reputation: +114/-26
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2008, 12:06:06 PM »
About the story of Noah...

Pablo Picasso once said that painting is a series of lies meant to express the truth. I view the Bible in the same way that Picasso viewed painting... as a series of lies meant to express the truth. Stories in the Bible do not have to be literally true to be figuratively true or spiritually true. For instance, to believe that God created the universe one need not believe the Biblical claim that he created it in 7 days.

I have never understood why some Christians feel the need to cling to the notion that the Bible is literally true. Faith does not require that stories in the Bible be literally true. All faith requires is that followers believe the spiritual truth.

 ::)

Jesus treated the story of Noah as literal and real, so why shouldn't I?

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2008, 12:09:15 PM »
Oh, but it is important.  The Bible lays it out very plainly.  God did all the work in six days.  The only thing we are left to wonder is why He took His time.   We know He is unlimited, so why did He do it so incrementally?  What are we to learn from His example? 

I suppose you could argue that there is a lesson in the claim that God took a number of days to create the universe, but the fact remains that the belief that God created the universe does not depend on knowledge of how long God took to create the universe.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2008, 12:11:21 PM »

Jesus treated the story of Noah as literal and real, so why shouldn't I?

What do you mean by the claim that Christ "treated" the story of Noah as being literal? Can you provide an example of Christ's treatment of the story of Noah?
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2008, 12:12:23 PM »
Oh, but it is important.  The Bible lays it out very plainly.  God did all the work in six days.  The only thing we are left to wonder is why He took His time.   We know He is unlimited, so why did He do it so incrementally?  What are we to learn from His example? 

I suppose you could argue that there is a lesson in the claim that God took a number of days to create the universe, but the fact remains that the belief that God created the universe does not depend on knowledge of how long God took to create the universe.
Believing in one is just as easy as believing in the other.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2008, 12:22:28 PM »
Genesis 2:2-3 (NIV)
2  By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3  And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe on the seventh day. Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe by the seventh day. Who knows for sure which version is correct? Certainly not mankind. Mankind is fallible.
Here are six versions of the same scriptures.  They all say the same thing.  It would appear you are mistaken.

Quote
New American Standard, Genesis 2:2-3
2By )the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
   3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
King James, Genesis 2:2-3
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
   3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
New Living Translation, Genesis 2:2-3
2 On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he rested from all his work of creation.
Holman Christian Standard Bible, Genesis 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day, God completed His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done.3 God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, for on it He rested from His work of creation.
New International Reader’s Version, Genesis 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing. So on the seventh day he rested from all of his work. 3 God blessed the seventh day and made it holy. He rested on it. After he had created everything, he rested from all of the work he had done.
Young’s Literal Translation, Genesis 2:2-3
2and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made.
   3And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2008, 12:27:10 PM »
Genesis 2:2-3 (NIV)
2  By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3  And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe on the seventh day. Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe by the seventh day. Who knows for sure which version is correct? Certainly not mankind. Mankind is fallible.
Here are six versions of the same scriptures.  They all say the same thing.  It would appear you are mistaken.

Quote
New American Standard, Genesis 2:2-3
2By )the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
   3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
King James, Genesis 2:2-3
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
   3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
New Living Translation, Genesis 2:2-3
2 On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he rested from all his work of creation.
Holman Christian Standard Bible, Genesis 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day, God completed His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done.3 God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, for on it He rested from His work of creation.
New International Reader’s Version, Genesis 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing. So on the seventh day he rested from all of his work. 3 God blessed the seventh day and made it holy. He rested on it. After he had created everything, he rested from all of the work he had done.
Young’s Literal Translation, Genesis 2:2-3
2and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made.
   3And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making.


Huh? The King James version of the Bible and the New Living Translation version of the Bible both contain the claim that God finished the universe on the 7th day. Finishing something "on the 7th day" can mean that it was completed at the end of that day... 7 days.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 12:29:39 PM by The Night Owl »
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline Lord Undies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11388
  • Reputation: +639/-250
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2008, 12:28:40 PM »

Jesus treated the story of Noah as literal and real, so why shouldn't I?

What do you mean by the claim that Christ "treated" the story of Noah as being literal? Can you provide an example of Christ's treatment of the story of Noah?

I believe that was covered in The Sermon On The Mound when Jesus claimed the Word Of God (the Bible) was Law and forever.  That pretty much put His Seal of Assurance on the history of Noah as reported in The Bible.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2008, 12:30:20 PM »
Genesis 2:2-3 (NIV)
2  By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3  And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe on the seventh day. Some versions of the Bible contain the claim that God finished the work of creating the universe by the seventh day. Who knows for sure which version is correct? Certainly not mankind. Mankind is fallible.
Here are six versions of the same scriptures.  They all say the same thing.  It would appear you are mistaken.

Quote
New American Standard, Genesis 2:2-3
2By )the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
   3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
King James, Genesis 2:2-3
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
   3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
New Living Translation, Genesis 2:2-3
2 On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he rested from all his work of creation.
Holman Christian Standard Bible, Genesis 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day, God completed His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done.3 God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, for on it He rested from His work of creation.
New International Reader’s Version, Genesis 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing. So on the seventh day he rested from all of his work. 3 God blessed the seventh day and made it holy. He rested on it. After he had created everything, he rested from all of the work he had done.
Young’s Literal Translation, Genesis 2:2-3
2and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made.
   3And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making.


Huh? The King James version of the Bible and the New Living Translation version of the Bible both contain the claim that God finished the universe on the 7th day. Finishing something "on" a day can mean that it was completed at some point during that day.
On the seventh day it was finished...meaning there was no work done on the seventh day.  Is English your first language?
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2008, 12:32:46 PM »
I believe that was covered in The Sermon On The Mound when Jesus claimed the Word Of God (the Bible) was Law and forever.  That pretty much put His Seal of Assurance on the history of Noah as reported in The Bible.

Declaring the Bible to be law and eternal does not necessarily mean that everything in it should be interpreted literally. You can interpret Christ's declaration that the Bible is law and eternal to mean that the Bible should be intrepreted literally, but that is only your intrepretation.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline Lord Undies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11388
  • Reputation: +639/-250
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2008, 12:37:25 PM »
I believe that was covered in The Sermon On The Mound when Jesus claimed the Word Of God (the Bible) was Law and forever.  That pretty much put His Seal of Assurance on the history of Noah as reported in The Bible.

Declaring the Bible to be law and eternal does not necessarily mean that everything in it should be interpreted literally. You can interpret Christ's declaration that the Bible is law and eternal to mean that the Bible should be intrepreted literally, but that is only your intrepretation.

Psalm 111:7,8 seem to disagree with you.

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2008, 01:06:08 PM »

On the seventh day it was finished...meaning there was no work done on the seventh day.  Is English your first language?


So, if I say that I'm going to see a movie on Thursday, what I really mean is that I am going to see the movie before Thursday? Come on.

::)
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2008, 01:08:38 PM »


Psalm 111:7,8 seem to disagree with you.

Uh, no. Your interpretation of Psalm 111:7,8 disagrees with me. A story can be figuratively true even if it is not literally true.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2008, 01:11:35 PM »
I believe that was covered in The Sermon On The Mound when Jesus claimed the Word Of God (the Bible) was Law and forever.  That pretty much put His Seal of Assurance on the history of Noah as reported in The Bible.

Declaring the Bible to be law and eternal does not necessarily mean that everything in it should be interpreted literally. You can interpret Christ's declaration that the Bible is law and eternal to mean that the Bible should be intrepreted literally, but that is only your intrepretation.

Psalm 111:7,8 seem to disagree with you.
7 The works of his hands are faithful and just; all his precepts are trustworthy.

    8 They are steadfast for ever and ever, done in faithfulness and uprightness.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2008, 01:13:16 PM »

On the seventh day it was finished...meaning there was no work done on the seventh day.  Is English your first language?


So, if I say that I'm going to see a movie on Thursday, what I really mean is that I am going to see the movie before Thursday? Come on.

::)
If the viewing of the movie will be completed, on Thursday, then you saw it Wednesday or before.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline The Night Owl

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Reputation: +22/-5102
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2008, 01:40:52 PM »

If the viewing of the movie will be completed, on Thursday, then you saw it Wednesday or before.


Uh, no. Saying that something will be completed on a given day can mean that it will be completed by that day, but it can also mean that it will be completed at some point during that day. If I tell you that I will finish watching a set of DVDs on Thursday, I might mean that I will finish watching them by Thursday but I could also mean that I will finish watching them at some point on Thursday.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 01:52:06 PM by The Night Owl »
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas

Offline Rebel Yell

  • Redneck with a Brain
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1411
  • Reputation: +111/-44
  • One more month, and I can forget about Obama.
Re: Bringing up Creationism and Noah turns CU into DU
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2008, 02:14:49 PM »
The literal translation of the word day means a period of time.  In the beginning there was no time as we know it.  Hence, God created X on X day (period of time).  Religious scholars and scientists have been arguing forever, if one day they would stop being so hardheaded, they may see that they are both right.  Science is HOW God created the universe, and a day doesn't neccesarily mean 24 hours.

Another example, God vs. Big Bang Theory:  Big Bang Theory says there was essentially nothing, then BANG it's here.  Isn't that pretty much what the Bibke says?  God said BANG, and creation was here.
I feel that once a black fella has referred to white foks as "honky paleface devil white-trash cracker redneck Caspers," he's abdicated the right to get upset about the "N" word. But that's just me. -- Jim Goad