Author Topic: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't  (Read 4028 times)

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Offline franksolich

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https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/the-indefensible-hiroshima-revisionism-that-haunts-america-to-this-day/

Oh my.

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Mom Cat (9205 posts)    August 11, 2017 at 4:48 pm
 
The Indefensible Hiroshima Revisionism That Haunts America To This Day
Seventy years ago this week we vaporized 250,000 civilians, and yet still view the bombings as an
act of mercy

“Never, never waste a minute on regret. It’s a waste of time.”
— President Harry Truman

Here we are, 70 years after the nuclear obliteration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I’m wondering if we’ve come even one step closer to a moral reckoning with our status as the world’s only country to use atomic weapons to slaughter human beings.

Will an American president ever offer a formal apology? Will our country ever regret the dropping of “Little Boy” and “Fat Man,” those two bombs that burned hotter than the sun? Will it absorb the way they instantly vaporized thousands of victims, incinerated tens of thousands more, and created unimaginably powerful shockwaves and firestorms that ravaged everything for miles beyond ground zero? Will it finally come to grips with the “black rain” that spread radiation and killed even more people — slowly and painfully — leading in the end to a death toll for the two cities conservatively estimated at more than 250,000?

Given the last seven decades of perpetual militarization and nuclear “modernization” in this country, the answer may seem like an obvious no. Still, as a historian, I’ve been trying to dig a little deeper into our lack of national contrition. As I have, an odd fragment of Americana kept coming to mind, a line from the popular 1970 tearjerker Love Story: “Love,” says the female lead when her boyfriend begins to apologize, “means never having to say you’re sorry.” It has to be one of the dumbest definitions ever to lodge in American memory, since real love often requires the strength to apologize and make amends.

More at: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47590.htm

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GZeusH (1789 posts)    (Reply to duckpin - post #1)   August 11, 2017 at 5:09 pm
 
2. If FDR died 6 months earlier,

It would have been President Wallace and his VP from Missouri, and there likely wouldn’t have been a Cold War.  Truman would have been as well known as Alben Barkley.

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duckpin (3305 posts)    (Reply to GZeusH - post #2)   August 11, 2017 at 5:13 pm

4. or John Nance Garner. FDR changed history when he dumped Henry W for
Truman – history can change with the wrong person in a position of great power.

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Mom Cat (9205 posts)    (Reply to GZeusH - post #2)   August 11, 2017 at 6:24 pm

6. The dem party's move against Wallace and the oligarchs' selection of
Truman was the death of the New Deal. Fast forward to the Dems move against Bernie.

^^^the name "Harry Truman" shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence with the hoary old white-haired sourassed sourpuss crank from Vermont .

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PADemD (1004 posts)    (Reply to original post)   August 11, 2017 at 8:26 pm
 
16. Perhaps the Allied military did not want to risk losing the same amount (209,000+) of casualties as the invasion of Normandy.

“Over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or went missing during the Battle of Normandy. This figure includes over 209,000 Allied casualties, with nearly 37,000 dead amongst the ground forces and a further 16,714 deaths amongst the Allied air forces.”

http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/d-day/d-day-and-the-battle-of-normandy-your-questions-answered
My dad went through PT boat training for the invasion of Japan.  I’m glad he didn’t have to do that

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RufusTFirefly (1337 posts)    (Reply to PADemD - post #16)   August 11, 2017 at 8:47 pm
 
18. I'm glad your dad survived, but the invasion story is a stubborn myth

The U.S. atomic destruction of 140,000 people at Hiroshima and 70,000 at Nagasaki was never “necessary” because Japan was already smashed, no land invasion was needed and Japan was suing for peace. The official myth that “the bombs saved lives” by hurrying Japan’s surrender can no longer be believed except by those who love to be fooled.

The long-standing fiction has been destroyed by the historical record kept in U.S., Soviet, Japanese and British archives — now mostly declassified — and detailed by Ward Wilson in his book Five Myths about Nuclear Weapons (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2013).

Greg Mitchell’s Atomic Cover-Up (Sinclair Books, 2011) also helps explain the durability of the “saved lives” ruse. Wartime and occupation censors seized all films and still photos of the two atomic cities, and the U.S. government kept them hidden for decades. Even in 1968, newsreel footage from Hiroshima held in the National Archives was stamped, “SECRET, Not To Be Released Without the Approval of the DOD.” Photos of the atomized cities that did reach the public merely showed burned buildings or mushroom clouds — rarely human victims.

The Enduring Myth of Hiroshima

I honor the lives of all people — your father’s and those of the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, who were incinerated not to end a war, but to prove a point.

Why does this myth persist? It’s a sad combination of self-serving propaganda and cognitive dissonance. To actually admit that the United States would needlessly obliterate more than 200,000 people is just too much for most of us to bear.

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Rozinante (3120 posts)    (Reply to original post)   August 11, 2017 at 10:37 pm
 
20. Sorry…disagree.

Considering Japan’s will to continue to the bitter end, and all of their war crimes including genocide in China, and that Russia had agreed to fight Japan when Germany surrendered but had already suffered tremendous casualties carrying the bulk of the fight in European Theatre; I agree with the decision to end the war as soon as possible.

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Aya Reiko (22 posts)    (Reply to Rozinante - post #20)   August 11, 2017 at 10:51 pm
 
21. I agree with you.

The concept of “Japan was ready for peace” is utter BS.  The slightest bit of research would have revealed that.  A part of the brokered Japanese peace deal included no war crimes prosecution at all.  Not to mention, when the Emperor did plan to surrender unconditionally, several of the remaining officers tried to overthrow him in a coup d’état known as the Kyuujou incident.

And we still haven’t used up all the purple heart medals we thought we would have needed in the aftermath of D-Day-2.
apres moi, le deluge

Offline Carl

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 04:18:02 AM »
Quote
RufusTFirefly (1337 posts)    (Reply to PADemD - post #16)   August 11, 2017 at 8:47 pm
 
18. I'm glad your dad survived, but the invasion story is a stubborn myth

The U.S. atomic destruction of 140,000 people at Hiroshima and 70,000 at Nagasaki was never “necessary” because Japan was already smashed, no land invasion was needed and Japan was suing for peace. The official myth that “the bombs saved lives” by hurrying Japan’s surrender can no longer be believed except by those who love to be fooled.

The long-standing fiction has been destroyed by the historical record kept in U.S., Soviet, Japanese and British archives — now mostly declassified — and detailed by Ward Wilson in his book Five Myths about Nuclear Weapons (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2013).

Greg Mitchell’s Atomic Cover-Up (Sinclair Books, 2011) also helps explain the durability of the “saved lives” ruse. Wartime and occupation censors seized all films and still photos of the two atomic cities, and the U.S. government kept them hidden for decades. Even in 1968, newsreel footage from Hiroshima held in the National Archives was stamped, “SECRET, Not To Be Released Without the Approval of the DOD.” Photos of the atomized cities that did reach the public merely showed burned buildings or mushroom clouds — rarely human victims.

The Enduring Myth of Hiroshima

I honor the lives of all people — your father’s and those of the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, who were incinerated not to end a war, but to prove a point.

Why does this myth persist? It’s a sad combination of self-serving propaganda and cognitive dissonance. To actually admit that the United States would needlessly obliterate more than 200,000 people is just too much for most of us to bear.

But did they use chicken wire and cinder blocks to debunk it?

Offline franksolich

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 05:56:05 AM »
This is somewhat unrelated, but because this is Manny's primitives, it's an important query.

I just read a new account of further discrepancies and probable lies regarding the college the wife of the hoary old white-haired sourassed sourpuss crank from Vermont used to run.

She was let go by the college.

When she was let go, did they pay her any money, and if so, how much?

This is something that seems to happen with a lot of higher-ranking Democrats, liberals, and primitives in just about every entity or agency; even though they did wrong, they're still rewarded with severance or a bonus or "keep your mouth shut" cash.  Even though they did wrong, and should've been cut loose with merely a "**** you, get the Hell out of here."
apres moi, le deluge

Offline SVPete

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 07:28:14 AM »
Quote
Aya Reiko (22 posts)    (Reply to Rozinante - post #20)   August 11, 2017 at 10:51 pm
 
21. I agree with you.

The concept of “Japan was ready for peace” is utter BS.  The slightest bit of research would have revealed that.  A part of the brokered Japanese peace deal included no war crimes prosecution at all.  ...

Another condition for which the Japanese were holding out was keeping some of their conquered territories - more than just keeping Taiwan and Korea, which they'd ruled for 5 decades. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the only final blows, but those bombings saved:

* Hundreds of thousands of allied troops who would have been part of the invasion(s) and conquest(s);

* Hundreds of thousands or millions of Japanese troops and civilians who would have died during the invasion(s) and conquest(s);

* Hundreds of thousands of allied POWs still in Japanese hands to whose camps Japan no longer had the ability to keep supplied with food, etc..

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrible mercies.

Quote
Mom Cat (9205 posts)
...
I’m wondering if we’ve come even one step closer to a moral reckoning with our status as the world’s only country to use atomic weapons to slaughter human beings.

I dunno how to break this to you, "Mom Cat", but the 200K+ who died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not any more dead than the 10s of thousands who died in the near obliteration of many Japanese cities, or the Chinese civilians slaughtered by Unit 731 and other arms of the IJA, or civilians slaughtered by the IJA in conquered territories like the Philippines, Dutch East Indies (modern Indonesia), and French Indochina (modern Southeast Asian countries). They aren't any more dead than the 200K-300K slaughtered by the IJA in the Rape of Nanking. War is horrible, but at least there was a purpose - ending the war - to the devastation of Japanese cities.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Carl

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 07:37:08 AM »
The death toll from communist dictators makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like birthday partys.

Offline SVPete

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 08:37:28 AM »
The death toll from communist dictators makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like birthday partys.

IKR?

H & N killed 200K-250K, far from a handful. But:

* Lenin & Stalin killed some 20 or 30 million (or more ... most monsters don't keep records of their atrocities) in the gulags, mass exilings, and terror famine; the Pineys probably have many Stalin apologists who deny or minimize the slaughter;

* Mao slaughtered 40M-60M Chinese through his "reeducation" camps, mass starvation, and Cultural Revolution; the Pineys probably have many Mao apologists who similarly deny or minimize the slaughter;

* Pol Pot slaughtered 1.7M-2.5M people, 20%-30% of the people of Cambodia; I don't think the Pineys deny this, but they keep it out of their thinking, because the Killing Fields were a result of the Vietnam War protests in which many of them tantrummed.

Those are just the worst cases. Cuba, NoKo, Vietnam, and Ethiopia all have their times of Hell, and Venezuela is swiftly lurching that way in a race between slaughter and collapse.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline YupItsMe

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 11:58:30 AM »
The death toll from communist dictators makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like birthday partys.

 Side note.  Nothing ruins a good mideastern birthday party like an AC-130.  They'll never learn not to fire those AK-47's in the air.

Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 10:26:43 PM »
The death toll from communist dictators makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like birthday partys.

Exactly.

Top 10 Deadliest Democide/Genocide
1. 76,702,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
2. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
3. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
4. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
5. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military
6. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
7. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges
8. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
9. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
10. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing
11. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
12. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico 
13. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse
14. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

All the biggest mass murderers are Communists.

Anti-Communists
1. Indonesia 3,000,000 1965-1966 Indonesian Communist Purge 1965-1966
2. Spain 58,000 to 400,000 The Francoist Repression 1936-1939
3. Argentina 60,000 Dirty War 1976-1983
4. Southern Cone South America 60,000 to 80,000 Operation Condor 1968-1989
5. El Salvador 30,000 1932 Salvadoran Peasant Massacre
6. Taiwan 15,000 to 35,000 1947 to 1987 White Terror
7. Thailand 200 to +3,000 1972 Red Drum Killings
8. Chile +3,000 1973 to 1990 Pinochet

The biggest Anti-Communist killings are Indonesia and Spain.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 11:00:21 PM by Ptarmigan »
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Offline DUmpsterDiver

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 11:11:25 PM »
Maybe Manny is okay but his cadre of islam loving swarthy body sweat followers and admins will never entertain the truth of the filth that islam and blm deliver.  ESAD is a compliment to his feces eating leftists bilge.

Offline Movie buff- The Sequel

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2017, 06:45:01 AM »
"PADemD" claims that the US military was trying to avoid repeating Normandy, but I'd say a better comparison was that they wanted to avoid a repeat of Iwo Jima. The battle to take that island was incredibly long and incredibly bloody (Japanese soldiers had been taught to never surrender for any reasons, and to take as many enemy soldiers down with them as they possibly could), and they knew a traditional land invasion of Japan would be that times 100, with the added complication/ difficulty of civilians.
We don't view what was done to Hiroshima and Nagasaki as good things; We view them as awful and regrettable yet sadly necessary things.

Offline SVPete

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2017, 07:23:33 AM »
Quote
Top 10 Deadliest Democide/Genocide
...
6. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
...

What makes this more horrific beyond the pure number of people killed is that Pol Pot & Gang slaughtered 20%-30% of the population of Cambodia. Think of that in terms of a family. It's like every family of 4 lost a member, and every extended family of Grandparents, children, and grandchildren had several members slaughtered. The slaughter wasn't that homogeneous, of course, but there were probably few 3-generation extended families that did not lose at least one member.

So while in pure numbers Pol Pot was "not as bad" as the Indonesian anti-Communist slaughter, as a percentage of a medium-sized nation slaughtered, Pol Pot was probably among the - if not THE - worst in history.

I suspect the numbers killed in NoKo camps or starved in the Kim Dynasty's government-imposed national famine could be far higher. NoKo has like 7 decades of Hell in which the 3 years of war may not have been the worst.

I wonder why Ethiopia's government-caused famine ("We Are the World") and Sudan's 25 years of genocide against what is now South Sudan (Muslims on Christians and Animists) didn't make the Top ## list.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline franksolich

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2017, 12:51:40 PM »

2. Spain 58,000 to 400,000 The Francoist Repression 1936-1939

Sorry, sir, but I must object.

Only God knows how many Spaniards the Loyalists (Communist, socialist, anarchist, other malcontents) murdered, which was surely much more than the collateral damage done by the liberating Nationalists.

It's long past time one looked at the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) with a coldly objective, unbiased perspective, instead of all the fake news the left-sympathizing news media spread around.
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Offline J P Sousa

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2017, 01:14:21 PM »
Reading this thread jogged my memory about left wing history;

Quote
The American Left has been expert in indoctrinating a new generation with false history. We have seen this with Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick’s Showtime TV series on the Cold War, and especially with the writings and pseudo-history of the late Howard Zinn. While conservatives — with some laudable exceptions — concentrate largely on policy issues, the left knows that it is not sufficient to work only for its own political agenda. The left realizes it needs to capture the realm of culture, which includes the portrayal of the American past.

http://www.educationviews.org/left-distorts-history-inspire-generations-activists/

Unfortunately, the media is all too helpful in the portrayal of false history.  :censored:
John Wayne: "America Why I Love Her"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5ZGz7h0epU

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Obama Wiretapped The Trump Tower...FACT

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Offline docstew

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2017, 08:31:32 PM »
"PADemD" claims that the US military was trying to avoid repeating Normandy, but I'd say a better comparison was that they wanted to avoid a repeat of Iwo Jima. The battle to take that island was incredibly long and incredibly bloody (Japanese soldiers had been taught to never surrender for any reasons, and to take as many enemy soldiers down with them as they possibly could), and they knew a traditional land invasion of Japan would be that times 100, with the added complication/ difficulty of civilians.
We don't view what was done to Hiroshima and Nagasaki as good things; We view them as awful and regrettable yet sadly necessary things.

The endstate for the invasion of the Japanese mainland can be stated in a quote from Bull Halsey: "When we're done, the only place where Japanese will be spoken is hell." He knew from previous island invasions that there would be no surrender offered, just endless banzai attacks with women carrying their babies leading the charge (the babies were to be thrown on the bayonets of the invasion force to prevent their use). The US military was expecting over 1 MILLION KIA and a virtual genocide of the Japanese people. So, yes, 200K-250K dead is merciful, because the alternative is how many millions dead.

Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2017, 09:38:22 PM »
Sorry, sir, but I must object.

Only God knows how many Spaniards the Loyalists (Communist, socialist, anarchist, other malcontents) murdered, which was surely much more than the collateral damage done by the liberating Nationalists.

It's long past time one looked at the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) with a coldly objective, unbiased perspective, instead of all the fake news the left-sympathizing news media spread around.


No objections, sir. I want to learn more.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2017, 07:27:19 AM »
If early Communist dictators like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Kim I augured what the Communist "Loyalists" would have done, however bad Franco was, the "Loyalists" would have 5X or 10X worse. And then there's what a Communist-ruled Spain would have meant for Portugal and France.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Charlespg

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2017, 09:49:32 AM »




* Hundreds of thousands of allied POWs still in Japanese hands to whose camps Japan no longer had the ability to keep supplied with food, etc..
Japan planed  to kill all allied POW's and Internees


http://americanpowsofjapan.blogspot.com/p/execution-dates.html

not to mention the Chinese Burma  India Theater that everyone forgets and where the Japanese military was still a major threat

I have nothing but contempt for atomic bomb apologists like mom cat  I consider them the same kind of scum as David Irving  and Holocaust deniers

Funny little brown and yellow people being killed like flies
by imperial japan  doesn't  seem to  matter to these jerks

Offline SVPete

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Re: Manny's primitives remember Hiroshima, even though Skins's didn't
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2017, 10:02:52 AM »
The recent discovery of the wreck of the USS Indianapolis might provide some trolling opportunities.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.