Soon to be HUGH!!!! DU and the Atom Bomb at Hiroshima

[BlueStateSaint]

Uhhuh, H5 for the account.

[Attero Dominatus]

Radical Activist  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Aug-06-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
111. Japan was ready to surrender.
   
But just not under the conditions we wanted.
These are the lies Americans tell ourselves so we can still believe we're a good nation.
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Japan had no intention of surrendering, idiot. Operation Downfall would have killed millions on both sides.

[Rebel]

Uhhuh, did you ever see "White Light, Black Rain"? A lot of the older people feel that the bombing was the fault of the Japanese because they started it. The older people who are suffering from all kinds of illnesses due to it are being treated like lepers over there. It's really pathetic when you think about it. One said it's as if the government just wants them to hurry up and die off. I understand they were our enemy, but their damn government shouldn't treat'em that way. Most of the ones suffering were just kids at the time of the bombing.

Damn right we should have dropped'em, but the Japanese government needs to own up to it's responsibility to the citizens of those two cities.

[Chris_]

Radical Activist  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Aug-06-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
111. Japan was ready to surrender.
   
But just not under the conditions we wanted.
These are the lies Americans tell ourselves so we can still believe we're a good nation.
   Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top

Japan had no intention of surrendering, idiot. Operation Downfall would have killed millions on both sides.

The DUmp monkeys really are ignorant.  They have no idea of the military culture that overtook Japan in the late 19th and early 20th century while Japan was busy making war on its neighbors.  You didnd't have to be in the Imperial army to be conscripted.  Old men, women, and children were expected to fight with whatever they had.  Whatever numbers the Japanese army had to repel an invasion, you can add another 32 million civillians to it.

[Airwolf]

The reason for the dropping of the two atomic bombs was clear to everyone on Dec. 7th 1941. Because of what the japanese did tha tday a whole lot of  people never made it back home. Those same people should never have ever had to fight a war in the first place but Japan and Germany were not willing to see things that way. All the revisionist of history can say what they want the facts are though that without the use of those weapons Japan would have gone down fighting to the last person alive. They had women training to fight off the invasion and old men too. Hardly the kind of people that were willing to surrender once our troops got the beaches .

[Gwitness]

think any of these idiots will remember the Rape of Nanking?

[Attero Dominatus]

think any of these idiots will remember the Rape of Nanking?

If the DUmmies even know of it, they would probably find some way to blame America as they usually do.

[Vagabond]

I am not sure that dropping the bomb could be classified as illegal.

What we knew at the time was:
1.  Even poorly equipped Japanese troops and civilians on the islands put up hellish fights.

2.  The Japanese troops in the home islands were well trained and equipped.  Intelligence had shown that Japanese High Command was arming civilians with whatever was available.  (1.25 million troops considered to be the elite Japanese force)

3.  The Japanese still had considerable troop formations in China.

4.  They still had considerable planes available for kamikaze missions.  (we had severely underestimated their remaining inventory)

5.  They had pledged to fight to the last.

Our goals were:
1.  Bring the war to the most rapid, least bloody close possible.

2.  Defeat the Japanese before the Soviets were able to mount an invasion.  (It would have consisted of a bunch of fishing and transport vessels, but that wouldn't have mattered.)

3.  Demonstrate to the Soviets the caapability of our new weapon, to keep them from getting any ideas.

The only way to meet our goals and avoid a horrible fate for the Japanese as a people and a culture was to drop the bomb.  For the Japanese, they were like a bear with it's foot caught in a trap.  The trap has to be pushed even deeper before the mechanism could be reset, causing more pain.  But that pain is better than the other option.

[EastFacingNorth]

I remember reading, not to long ago, a description of nuclear weapons that really resonated with me.  It went something like this (I'm paraphrasing from memory here):

Those who call nuclear weapons immoral are gravely mistaken.  Never since the days when kings personally led their soldiers into combat has there been a weapon which placed the heads of state in as much danger as their soldiers, that eliminate the moral hazard implicit in a situation where a leader may send soldiers to their deaths without any risk to their own persons; and for that reason, nuclear weapons are the only moral weapon to be invented since the end of that era.

[Vagabond]

I remember that President Washington led troops at least part of the way during the Whiskey Rebellion. 

Of course, that really wasn't much of anything, but I believe he may have been the last leader of a nation to lead his troops into a hostile situation.

[Rebel]

Those sumbitches were sending over balloon bombs and there's no TELLING what was in "certain" U-Boats that were sank in route to Japan.

[djones520]

I remember that President Washington led troops at least part of the way during the Whiskey Rebellion. 

Of course, that really wasn't much of anything, but I believe he may have been the last leader of a nation to lead his troops into a hostile situation.

I believe President Madison manned an artillery position during the British attack on Washington DC.

[Rebel]

I remember that President Washington led troops at least part of the way during the Whiskey Rebellion. 

Of course, that really wasn't much of anything, but I believe he may have been the last leader of a nation to lead his troops into a hostile situation.

I believe President Madison manned an artillery position during the British attack on Washington DC.

DC? Or Baltimore? I seemed to remember reading that DC was pretty much evacuated.

[djones520]

I remember that President Washington led troops at least part of the way during the Whiskey Rebellion. 

Of course, that really wasn't much of anything, but I believe he may have been the last leader of a nation to lead his troops into a hostile situation.

I believe President Madison manned an artillery position during the British attack on Washington DC.

DC? Or Baltimore? I seemed to remember reading that DC was pretty much evacuated.

DC.  We get an infomercial that comes across AFN now and again about it.  Though I can't for the life of me find mention of it on the interwebs.  I'll keep looking though.

It is firmly established that he was present at the Battle of Bladensburg (the battle that attempted to repulce the british from reaching DC), but my google foo will not find anything confirming whether or not he actually fired any weapons during the battle.

[NHSparky]

No Americans were killed in atom-bombing the two cities.  One or more would have been in the invasion.  Therefore I'm perfectly OK with it.  They started it, we finished it.

Actually, a number of American POW's (slave laborers) WERE killed during the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, including at least one American in Hiroshima who survived the bombing but was dragged out and beaten to death by enraged civilians.

[USA4ME]

A couple of things.  My father was in the Pacific Fleet and he told me that when the possibility of having to invade Japan was being discussed, the officers on his ship told the sailors that reports said every man, woman, and child in Japan had some type of weapon and were going to fight to the death if the USA invaded.

At my pilot's association meeting a few years ago, we had the honor of having Captain Rbt. Morgan (Memphis Belle) speak (He has since passed away).  Speaking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he noted that several people today were saying that the USA shouldn't have dropped the bombs, but at the time the men in the armed services were glad that they did because they were tired of fighting and wanted the war to be over.

.

[jtyangel]

The DUmpmonkeys aren't upset those bombs were dropped 63 years ago.  They could not care less. 

The little goons are upset the USA won the day.  They would prefer the war to have dragged on and on.  That's the way they are.

It's like the midget brains getting all high and mighty about some mythical abortion clinic bombing.  They don't care about the lives the bombing takes.  They are sad about the killings that cannot continue.

Hi5 undies! precisely!

[DumbAss Tanker]

No Americans were killed in atom-bombing the two cities.  One or more would have been in the invasion.  Therefore I'm perfectly OK with it.  They started it, we finished it.

Actually, a number of American POW's (slave laborers) WERE killed during the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, including at least one American in Hiroshima who survived the bombing but was dragged out and beaten to death by enraged civilians.

I figured there were a few incidentals on the ground, on the other hand the Japanese would also have killed all prisoners in their hands rather than permit them fall back into our hands during an amphibious invasion.

[NHSparky]

No Americans were killed in atom-bombing the two cities.  One or more would have been in the invasion.  Therefore I'm perfectly OK with it.  They started it, we finished it.

Actually, a number of American POW's (slave laborers) WERE killed during the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, including at least one American in Hiroshima who survived the bombing but was dragged out and beaten to death by enraged civilians.

I figured there were a few incidentals on the ground, on the other hand the Japanese would also have killed all prisoners in their hands rather than permit them fall back into our hands during an amphibious invasion.

Which the Japanese also did with disgusting regularity--which is why the raid on Cabanatuan was deemed so necessary (basis for the movie "The Great Raid").  Of course, talk to the younger generation of Japanese about the atrocities their ancestors committed during WWII and they don't believe you, mostly because that stuff simply isn't taught in their school system.  THAT I learned when I nearly pummeled a couple of smartass Japanese tourists in Pearl who were laughing and thought the whole USS Arizona memorial was a propaganda exercise on our part.  Needless to say, they got a real quick education on that score, and not just from me.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Which the Japanese also did with disgusting regularity--which is why the raid on Cabanatuan was deemed so necessary (basis for the movie "The Great Raid").  Of course, talk to the younger generation of Japanese about the atrocities their ancestors committed during WWII and they don't believe you, mostly because that stuff simply isn't taught in their school system.  THAT I learned when I nearly pummeled a couple of smartass Japanese tourists in Pearl who were laughing and thought the whole USS Arizona memorial was a propaganda exercise on our part.  Needless to say, they got a real quick education on that score, and not just from me.

I have to give it to the Germans that they have at least come to grips with the reality of what happened, and though feelings about it are quite varied among them, they are all at least aware of it.  The Japanese, on the other hand, pretend their entire bloodstained and treacherous barbarism from the Mukden Incident through the end of WWII never happened at all and seem to quietly suppress any awareness of it domestically.     

[ReaganForRushmore]

DAT, Actually the Germans are also sanitizing their history as well. I visited Munich late last year  and visited a local graveyard. To my surprise, jewish gravestones that had been there, some from the Holocaust, have been removed. In a local school, I visited cousins and heard that the Russians had operated death camps and that was the main reason that Germany invaded Russia.......So sad, I had to sit down with my young cousins of the heinous nature of the Nazis and there allies. I left books with my in laws and they were upset that I was looking to re-fight World War II.

[DumbAss Tanker]

That is a part of what I meant with the "varied takes on it;" perhaps the youngest generation is going into forgetfulness, but a lot of the Left orientation in adult German politics comes from a turning away from the crimes of the Reich.  At the same time there is a large body of thought among the older adults that while they realize the genocide against the Jews was very wrong, they don't regret much else about it (especially as you go farther south it seems), and throughout the land there is a certain hidden pride that they totally kicked France's ass in the space of a month in 1940, nor do they feel they were beaten by anything besides overwhelming numbers and materiel when they ended up pitted against both the US and the USSR.  Not that they think Hitler was anything but a whack job, they pretty much blame him for getting them at war with both of the big boys at the same time.

There is an element of truth to the Soviet extermination camps thing, in that between Lenin and Stalin, something like 30 million Soviets died by their own government's hand before the War by execution or in labor camps, exceeding even their devastating war losses later.  Of course they were all Soviets and it really didn't have much of anything to do with their ethnicity.

Reading the books penned by Germans after the war, you do get the impression they believed the invasion of the USSR was an exercise in jumping the Russkiis first, before the Russkiis jumped them, based both on the intel they had as well as first-hand observations of the depth and nature of Soviet military dispositions in the first weeks of the attack.  They were very likely right, but for various shifting reasons this point was totally glossed over in the US then and since.  Certainly the Soviets were not going to be ready to do it in 1941 and unlikely to be ready even in 1942.  If Stalin regarded the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as anything more than a temporary convenience, it would be the most exceptional document in the entire history of Stalin-era Soviet diplomacy.       

[Wineslob]

Which the Japanese also did with disgusting regularity--which is why the raid on Cabanatuan was deemed so necessary (basis for the movie "The Great Raid").  Of course, talk to the younger generation of Japanese about the atrocities their ancestors committed during WWII and they don't believe you, mostly because that stuff simply isn't taught in their school system.  THAT I learned when I nearly pummeled a couple of smartass Japanese tourists in Pearl who were laughing and thought the whole USS Arizona memorial was a propaganda exercise on our part.  Needless to say, they got a real quick education on that score, and not just from me.

I have to give it to the Germans that they have at least come to grips with the reality of what happened, and though feelings about it are quite varied among them, they are all at least aware of it.  The Japanese, on the other hand, pretend their entire bloodstained and treacherous barbarism from the Mukden Incident through the end of WWII never happened at all and seem to quietly suppress any awareness of it domestically.     

They were FORCED to see the Death Camps after the Allied troops swept through Germany. Many had refused to believed that it was possible, right in front of their noses. From what my wife's Grandmother would sometimes "joke" about(I never heard her say this, the family did), I think they were full of shit. They KNEW.
Her "joke"? "How do you tell when a Jew is done? They stop screaming."

[DumbAss Tanker]

Which the Japanese also did with disgusting regularity--which is why the raid on Cabanatuan was deemed so necessary (basis for the movie "The Great Raid").  Of course, talk to the younger generation of Japanese about the atrocities their ancestors committed during WWII and they don't believe you, mostly because that stuff simply isn't taught in their school system.  THAT I learned when I nearly pummeled a couple of smartass Japanese tourists in Pearl who were laughing and thought the whole USS Arizona memorial was a propaganda exercise on our part.  Needless to say, they got a real quick education on that score, and not just from me.

I have to give it to the Germans that they have at least come to grips with the reality of what happened, and though feelings about it are quite varied among them, they are all at least aware of it.  The Japanese, on the other hand, pretend their entire bloodstained and treacherous barbarism from the Mukden Incident through the end of WWII never happened at all and seem to quietly suppress any awareness of it domestically.     

They were FORCED to see the Death Camps after the Allied troops swept through Germany. Many had refused to believed that it was possible, right in front of their noses. From what my wife's Grandmother would sometimes "joke" about(I never heard her say this, the family did), I think they were full of shit. They KNEW.
Her "joke"? "How do you tell when a Jew is done? They stop screaming."

I was talking about the generations raised after the War.  It's not like the people who lived through it didn't know understand what happened, whether they admit it or even care about it is something else.  The Japanese generations raised after the war were brought up in an environment where the adults acted like NOTHING had happened, and could easily believe Japan had won the war or that it had ended in some kind of standoff from what little their elders (as an entire culture, not just as indiidual diehards) told them about it.  I've heard equally tasteless 'jokes' in America about Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, and even the Holocaust, FWIW.

Anybody who expects kids born generations later to have any sense of national guilt for ANYTHING their forebears did is an idiot, though we seem to have no shortage of those in the US.  There are people who think Jews ought to feel guilty over Jesus, Whites should feel guilty over slavery, and Limeys should feel guilty over the Potato Famine, but life doesn't work that way and the same applies to modern Germans and the Holocaust, or modern Japanese and their elders' love of killing, raping, and/or oppressing anything non-Japanese.  What bothers me is not that the Japanese don't feel guilty about it, but that they refuse to acknowledge it even happened.   

[JohnnyReb]

Unit 731, unit 501, unit 100....all jap chemical and biological warfare research units. They systematically cut open live and fully awake prisoners to remove their internal organs after exposure to certaim elements of chemicals and germs. The bastards didn't even have the decency to expend a bullet to the head. There were several American prisoners that were done that way and group of 3 (I think) airman from a B-29 that was shot down.

They had better be glad I wasn't incharge of things in Japan after WW2. I would have gone down in history as "That Hanging Mother F***er".