Author Topic: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge  (Read 8604 times)

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Offline BlueStateSaint

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The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« on: December 07, 2010, 04:17:35 PM »
I found this on James Wesley, Rawles' SurvivalBlog.  I like the .357 Magnum as a handgun round, and I plan on getting a lever-action rifle in the chambering.

Quote
The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge

By James Wesley, Rawles on November 30, 2010 6:46 PM

As an avid reader of SurvivalBlog I know that most preppers like the .45 ACP round as their standard.  That's a great choice and an excellent round.  It has a long and solid history as a combat round.  It falls short in the arena of woods carry and most don't consider it a hunting round.  This report is not to compare the .45 to the .357 Magnum as it is an overdone conversation.  Instead, I would like to outline the facts about the .357 Magnum and discuss some of the misconceptions as well as the viability of this classic as an all around survival round for everything from personal protection to hunting and woods defense.  This round is very sensitive to barrel length and has many bullet options.  I would like to show how using a longer barrel maximizes the round and makes it very devastating.  I would also like to give a little pick-me-up to the old wheel gun guys like me who only see in cylinders.

Incapacitating power is where many discussions on the .357 go bad early.  The power of the .357 is grossly misunderstood and misrepresented.  The .357 is commonly over- and under-reported on power.  There are a few factors that have to be considered when discussing power, they are: Bullet weight, Velocity, and Bullet diameter.  One of my favorite tools to use when studying this subject is the Energy, Momentum, and Taylor KO (TKO) Calculator.  This is a very cool tool to have bookmarked on your computer.  Another tool that is very good is the charts made by four gentlemen who sat down with a couple of chronographs, 8,500 rounds of ammo, some Thompson Center single shot pistols.  They began shooting, recording and progressively shortening their barrels by an inch at a time, and then compiling the data.  Their data can be found at the Ballistics By The Inch web page.  The power of the .357 is greatly affected by barrel length.  The .357 seems to hit its prime at 6”.  Any shorter and a lot of power is lost any longer and you are toting a gun unnecessarily to big.  If you look at the charts made by the gentlemen at Ballistics by the Inch you will see that the difference between a 2” barrel and a 6” barrel is upward of 700 ft/sec of velocity.  If you use this info and plug it into the calculator you will see that your values skyrocket as the barrel length increases.  Using the data on a Corbon 125 grain JHP a 2” barrel yields an energy of 226 ft/lbs, momentum of 16, and a TKO of 5.  Now you plug in the data from the same round out of a 6” barrel and you get an energy of 816 ft/lbs, momentum of 30, and a TKO of 10.  This is huge in comparison.  I have plugged in several of my favorite .357 woods carry loads and have gotten similar results each time.

To give a rough comparison most 240 grain .44 Magnum factory loads have an energy of approx. 800 ft/lbs. Now I am not comparing the two rounds in total, I am just saying that the energy reaches .44 magnum ranges when a 6” barrel is used.  Now most guys who pack a .357 for woods carry opt for a 4” gun and most say “Ah, there isn't much difference between a 4” and 6” gun”, but I say nay.  Using the same info here is the 4” plugged in to the calculator. Energy 621 ft/lbs, momentum is 26, and TKO is a 9.  Now many say this isn't much but it really is.  Another rough comparison would be like saying a full power 10mm isn't much different than a 40 S&W.  Tell that to a car door with a bad guy on the other side.  When developing a round most ammo manufacturers use a 6"-to-8” barrel to do their ballistics testing.  There is a reason for this and it becomes very apparent in the numbers.

The .357 Magnum carries the honor of being #1 with one shot stops of two-legged threats.  The bullet in this statistic is the 125 grain hollowpoint.  That is a great choice for two-leggers but for those that live in areas dominated by four-legged threats a bigger bullet is better.  In this example I am going to use the Double Tap 200 grain WFNGC load.  Out of a 6” gun the load moves at 1,305 ft/sec.  When plugged in to the calculator we get energy of 756 ft/lbs, momentum of 37, and a TKO of 13.  This makes the .357 a good choice for hunting and woods carry in the lower 48 and some would argue Alaska as well but we won't have that argument here.  Caliber arguments are long and never really get far, but, if you look at the data certain things fly off the page.  The .357 shines in the data when you have a heavier bullet and a longer barrel.  Other calibers do better when the barrel length is shorter, but for a one gun option, the .357 has great potential.  As a good example the 10mm and .357 are compared quite often, when the bullet weight is 200 grain (for instance) and a standard Glock 20 is compared to a 6” .357 the .357 most often wins the numbers game hands down.  As the .357 barrel length is shortened, the 10mm starts to shine.  A 6” .357 blows the .45 ACP out of the water (using a M1911 with a 5" barrel), and quickly starts heading toward .44 Magnum numbers.  (But it does not, however, get there).

So, here are my thoughts and advise for those who would like to make the .357 their primary gun.  One of the most popular guns to purchase for self defense these days is a J-Frame .357 mag.  The common barrel length is 1.87-2”, as seen with our calculator, this is a very short barrel for the .357 and a great deal of powder is burned after it leaves the barrel resulting in a large flash.  When looking for a concealable carry gun a 3” barrel is much better.  When the same Corbon load is used and calculated the difference in 1” amounts to a gain of 353 ft/sec. This is very significant when it comes to a self defense situation.  S&W now makes several new 3” J-Frame guns and Ruger's 3” SP101 has a great following.

The rest (3 more paragraphs) is at:

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/11/the_357_magnum_an_all_around_s.html

For a one-chambering situation, I'd say that the .357 Magnum does the job.  I know that .44 Magnum fans will tout their round, and there's some arguments to be made for that stance.

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Offline Thor

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 04:24:19 PM »
In a self defense situation, one must be careful of over penetration. This is one reason that  the 10MM fell on its face. The LEOs decided that the .40 S&W was little better round because it didn't over-penetrate even though 10MM & .40 S&W are almost identical sizes.  In a survival situation, I'd rather have a little more power behind the bullet. For many years, one could use only certain calibers for handgun hunting, .357, 10MM, .44Mag, and .50AE, up in MN. They recently reviewed that and added more handgun calibers. (of course, AFTER I left) ::)
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 08:19:55 AM »
The .357 is extremely versatile since you can feed .38 Specials throuh most weapons designed for it, so you have a range of power and projectile types available that meets virtually any need.

In addition to .357 lever actions, and some interesting custom conversion pieces and single shots, there is also mass-produced pump action rifle available for it.
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 09:30:17 AM »
The .357 is extremely versatile since you can feed .38 Specials throuh most weapons designed for it, so you have a range of power and projectile types available that meets virtually any need.

In addition to .357 lever actions, and some interesting custom conversion pieces and single shots, there is also mass-produced pump action rifle available for it.

Is this pump action a Taurus?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

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"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 09:51:59 AM »
Is this pump action a Taurus?

I think so, I was just looking at some on-line yesterday.  There have been successful projects converting an M1 Carbine to .357 and I have been accumulating parts for such a project after I retire in a couple of years, the work essentially involves the bolt face, extractor, and a total rework of the barrel by either boring out a damaged one and relining it or machining a complete new one from a blank.  FN five-seven would probably work too, but it falls far outside my 'keeper' category.

.357/.38 is on my list of keeper calibers for my own household weapons, I stay to a few very-broadly-available calibers and aim to have more than one weapon in each.  For pistol caliber rounds in the 'keeper' category I also try to have at least one long gun on hand chambered for the same round.

eta:  Checked back on GunBroker, the pump .357 is the IMI Timberwolf, not a Taurus.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 09:55:24 AM by DumbAss Tanker »
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 03:26:39 PM »
In a self defense situation, one must be careful of over penetration. This is one reason that  the 10MM fell on its face. The LEOs decided that the .40 S&W was little better round because it didn't over-penetrate even though 10MM & .40 S&W are almost identical sizes.  In a survival situation, I'd rather have a little more power behind the bullet. For many years, one could use only certain calibers for handgun hunting, .357, 10MM, .44Mag, and .50AE, up in MN. They recently reviewed that and added more handgun calibers. (of course, AFTER I left) ::)

Thor, I forgot to add this:  There's a review of the 10mm on the Human Events website.  Apparently, Ted Nugent has used it to take quite a few heads of big game--even going so far as to use it on trips to Africa as a backup.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=40406
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"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

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Offline ColonialMarine0431

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 04:24:15 PM »
I still swear by my Taurus .357. It is just the right size and weigth for me and even with my big hands I can hold it comfortably. Plus the noise alone from a discharge will scare the Hell out of an intruder.  :-)
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 05:31:28 PM »
I have something of a different perspective - given we have a "duty to retreat" rather than a "right to self defense" in this country , and are barred possession of handguns for anything but club sporting events.

My present all purpose round is the trusty 308 win. It knocks down most game with a center of mass hit - some, like camels need a headshot to bring them down without a footrace. Something soft and squishy like a human - it'll give them something to really think about even out to 600 yards if they manage to survive the first impact.

The next one is a 45/70 (Christmas present - once the stinking paperwork goes through) for up close in dense scrub. I'll fit an EOTech sight to that.

The reasons I choose this are a combination of the above "duty to retreat" and the fact that should I be involved in a survival situation - there is no way I'm staying close to town. There's millions of acres of land within a couple hours drive that has a population density of less than 1/thousand acres.

In such situations over penetration is either not a concern or a good thing.

As for a 357 - I'd not like to shoot at a pig or other large and potentially aggressive game with it and it's not really much good for other game that is more easily spooked and thus needs to be hit from much longer distances.

Might be fine for a self defense round and for varmints that aren't fast runners or easily spooked but practically - I'd not want one.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 09:43:12 AM »
A lot depends on the terrain, distances, target types and situations in which you expect to use a given round, LC EFA, which I expect are considerably different for you than for a lot of us.  There are also some longer-term considerations like how much a combat load of the ammo weighs if you have to relocate suddenly, and how common it may be for restocking purposes.
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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 12:26:48 PM »
I (sort of) attempt to subscribe to DAT's philosophy, inasmuch as I try to standardize my weapons collection around a small group of commonly available cartridges.  My somewhat large collection of wheel guns are all .357 Mags, with the exception of one.  That one revolver is a large-frame Smith chambered in .41 Remington Mag.  With its 8 inch barrel and 230 grain hollow point in a +P load I use it as a "safety gun" when hunting in the woods.  With its ballistic specs nearly identical to the .44 Mag, and a rail-mounted scope, it's pretty accurate out to 50 yards.  I wouldn't think of using it as a primary hunting weapon, but for close-in awkward situations it'll do the job.

My autoloaders are all 9mm, and I generally just use NATO surplus ball, which is cheap, and readily available.  The ammo for my "house gun" however is typically a mixture of ball and Federal "Hydra-Shock", mags loaded with two rounds of ball, followed with two rounds of H/S, and repeating until the mag is full.  The self-defense philosophy being that an intruder has a chance to live (with medical attention) by retreating or surrendering after the first two, but most certainly won't survive the next two rounds.

Rifles are pretty much all .308, and 5.56mm with the exception of my long-range "reach out and touch something" rifle, which is a Weatherby Mark 5 (somewhat modified), chambered in 300 Weatherby Mag.  The ammo isn't easy to find, and generally expensive, but as its primary use is 600 - 1000 meter target competition, I load my own custom ammo, and once the brass is purchased, it's cost is not dissimilar from loading a .308.

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 11:47:45 PM »
A 357 Mag firearm is certainly a good survival weapon.  It is good against everything but Bear out to about 100 yards out of a 6 inch or longer barrel.  (Of course that is in Survival situations, I would not take any of my 357Mags deer hunting...)

It is so commonly used that it is loaded and reloaded in so many variants that laying up a variety of ammo is easy.  The 6" revolver is heavy but the Ammo is light.

Revolver/Rifle combos were popular in the west for just the reason that carrying a common set of ammo saved weight and cost.

It is all according to what one is attempting to survive.
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Offline 98ZJUSMC

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2011, 03:21:26 AM »
The .357 is extremely versatile since you can feed .38 Specials throuh most weapons designed for it, so you have a range of power and projectile types available that meets virtually any need.

In addition to .357 lever actions, and some interesting custom conversion pieces and single shots, there is also mass-produced pump action rifle available for it.

I played around with a .357 back in the eighties (heresy, for a 1911 series fan).  We saved a ton of money plinking, practicing and reloading .38 Special to play with.  Yeah, the weapon barks bigger and kicks much harder with the full .357 round, but it gets people up to speed on it.  If I was a wheel gun fan, I would probably use a .357 over the .44 for personal use.  Especially given, as you mentioned, the availability of .357 lever action models.  I found most .44 users I knew of had male compensation issues and I despise speed loaders.

I used a Thompson Center Contender, in .357, deer hunting once.  Very good preformance.
         
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 08:48:08 AM »
I agree on the speed loaders, EXCEPT the Safariland ones, they are designed the way all the other ones should have been - no awkward twist, thrusting them straight on until they bottom out on the cylinder face trips a button in the center of the cluster of rounds, and that releases all the rounds at once with a slight spring push to get them moving out of the loader.  The other ones are trash, but the Safariland ones are da bomb!
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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2011, 08:16:52 AM »
I played around with a .357 back in the eighties (heresy, for a 1911 series fan).  We saved a ton of money plinking, practicing and reloading .38 Special to play with.  Yeah, the weapon barks bigger and kicks much harder with the full .357 round, but it gets people up to speed on it.  If I was a wheel gun fan, I would probably use a .357 over the .44 for personal use.  Especially given, as you mentioned, the availability of .357 lever action models.  I found most .44 users I knew of had male compensation issues and I despise speed loaders.

I used a Thompson Center Contender, in .357, deer hunting once.  Very good preformance.

I was just re-reading this thread and decided to add this little anecdote--I handloaded for my Python.  16.5 gr of W296 under a Hornady 158-grain JSP, IIRC.  My parents still have the handloading equipment, and my father is going to get back into it.  One of the rounds that he would load for was his .44 Magnum in his Redhawk.  I can't remember just what the load was, but I seem to remember that it was pretty stiff.  Anyway, I noticed that his Redhawk would recoil less with his loads in it than my Python would with the handloads I would run through that.

That's one of the reasons why I want a .357 rifle.  My father seems to think I'm "not all there" with this desire, but a female co-worker of mine swears by her Marlin 1894C for deer.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

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"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

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Offline Thor

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2011, 09:39:13 AM »
I was just re-reading this thread and decided to add this little anecdote--I handloaded for my Python.  16.5 gr of W296 under a Hornady 158-grain JSP, IIRC.  My parents still have the handloading equipment, and my father is going to get back into it.  One of the rounds that he would load for was his .44 Magnum in his Redhawk.  I can't remember just what the load was, but I seem to remember that it was pretty stiff.  Anyway, I noticed that his Redhawk would recoil less with his loads in it than my Python would with the handloads I would run through that.

That's one of the reasons why I want a .357 rifle.  My father seems to think I'm "not all there" with this desire, but a female co-worker of mine swears by her Marlin 1894C for deer.

Ya know, IF I had to choose a caliber for that rifle, I'd go with a 44 Mag or 45 LC. The .357 just seems a tad underpowered for bigger game, even though I know it isn't. I have a Winchester 30-30 that I need to get out of my broken gun safe.
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Offline Taxman

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2011, 09:49:25 AM »
My carry gun when I am dressed professionally, i.e. suit and tie is a S&W 340 M&P in 357.  Have it stoked with five Federal 125 grain bullets.  One of my favorite guns in my collection is a S&W 586 in 357.  I carry that a lot while in the woods when the grizzlies are taking their naps.  I step up to a 500 S&W when grizzlies are awake. 

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2011, 12:58:09 PM »
My carry gun when I am dressed professionally, i.e. suit and tie is a S&W 340 M&P in 357.  Have it stoked with five Federal 125 grain bullets.  One of my favorite guns in my collection is a S&W 586 in 357.  I carry that a lot while in the woods when the grizzlies are taking their naps.  I step up to a 500 S&W when grizzlies are awake. 

A .357 is a little overkill as a carry gun, but it will work just fine. (concerns about over penetration) Of course, you COULD load it up with .38 Specials. My carry gun is a .40 S&W H&K USP Compact.
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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2011, 01:04:31 PM »
A .357 is a little overkill as a carry gun, but it will work just fine. (concerns about over penetration) Of course, you COULD load it up with .38 Specials. My carry gun is a .40 S&W H&K USP Compact.

Yeah.....I carry a little S&W "Detectives Special", with .38 +P's typically HydraShoks.........

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 05:22:48 AM »
Ya know, IF I had to choose a caliber for that rifle, I'd go with a 44 Mag or 45 LC. The .357 just seems a tad underpowered for bigger game, even though I know it isn't. I have a Winchester 30-30 that I need to get out of my broken gun safe.

Buffalo Bore has done testing with a few of their loads, and they have a 158-grain JHP that they clocked out of a Marlin 1894C at ovver 2150 fps.  Which comes out to right about .30-30 velocities and energies.  The .30-30 has killed buttloads of big bears in its' time, simply because it was the only thing available at the time.  BB also makes a 190-grain .30-30 load which they say can be used for defense against grizzlies.  I'm not too sure that I'd want to try that unless I had someone behind me with a 12 gauge and hot slugs in the tube.
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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 07:07:47 PM »
My favorite little rifle is my Ruger 44 mag carbine. What a sweet handling and shooting gun. I have a red dot sight on it and have killed many a big boar with it. I would fear nothing with it. I am looking for a nice 6" revolver to mate it with. With the both of those and a few pockets filled with ammo I think I could survive most anything.
"Liberalism is an essentially feminine, submissive world view. Perhaps a better adjective than feminine is infantile. It is the world view of men who do not have the moral toughness, the spiritual strength to stand up and do single combat with life, who cannot adjust to the reality that the world is not a huge, pink-and-blue, padded nursery in which the lions lie down with the lambs and everyone lives happily ever after."


~ Dr. William Pierce


 

"How many more times are we going to cower under tables and chairs, whimpering like mindless dogs, thinking that someone else has the responsibility to save and protect us?"

Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2011, 04:55:14 PM »
My favorite little rifle is my Ruger 44 mag carbine. What a sweet handling and shooting gun. I have a red dot sight on it and have killed many a big boar with it. I would fear nothing with it. I am looking for a nice 6" revolver to mate it with. With the both of those and a few pockets filled with ammo I think I could survive most anything.

While I agree that the Ruger Deerfield is a great little carbine, some idiots out there might say, "It's one of those semi-automatic assault weapons," and get some LEOs to harass you.  LEOs will see a levergun and say, "That's just someone trying to defend his family with his deer rifle," and be more likely to let that person walk.

I'm still lookin' for a Marlin 1894C, though I just might jump at the used Remington 7615 Police carbine at the LGS.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk!" -Ayn Rand
 
"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

Esse quam videri.

Offline LC EFA

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2011, 05:05:38 PM »
...

I'm still lookin' for a Marlin 1894C, though I just might jump at the used Remington 7615 Police carbine at the LGS.

I've got a Marlin 1895SBL on order/pending permit.

Expecting to have it in a couple weeks.

Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2011, 06:06:06 PM »
I've got a Marlin 1895SBL on order/pending permit.

Expecting to have it in a couple weeks.


I saw a 1895GBL (blued) at my LGS for $600.  He had two of them.  The ammo is a tad steep, though.  I highlight the .357 Magnum because I have a 6"-barreled Colt Python, and the "two gun, one chambering" idea appeals to me.

ETA:  H5 for getting one of the rifles I lust(ed) after.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk!" -Ayn Rand
 
"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

Esse quam videri.

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2011, 11:25:27 AM »
I've always tended to shy away from rifles chambered for pistol rounds........however, I've also lusted after one of Henry's replicas.......the problems is I don't know what I'd use it for if I had it.  It would be a crime to buy such a beautiful piece and just leave it in the safe........

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Offline catsmtrods

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Re: The .357 Magnum: An All-Around Survival Cartridge
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2011, 12:51:11 PM »
While I agree that the Ruger Deerfield is a great little carbine, some idiots out there might say, "It's one of those semi-automatic assault weapons," and get some LEOs to harass you.  LEOs will see a levergun and say, "That's just someone trying to defend his family with his deer rifle," and be more likely to let that person walk.


I'm still lookin' for a Marlin 1894C, though I just might jump at the used Remington 7615 Police carbine at the LGS.

I was thinking more on the into the woods survival mode. I carry my Ruger LCR loaded with Hornady critical defence all the time and have my Mossberg 500 pistol grip loaded with 00 buck and turkey shot for home defence. I like the idea of 2 guns same ammo and the 44mag is depenable on most any game or threat in my neck of the woods. I have hunted squrrels with it. Takes the top of their head off clean!!

"Liberalism is an essentially feminine, submissive world view. Perhaps a better adjective than feminine is infantile. It is the world view of men who do not have the moral toughness, the spiritual strength to stand up and do single combat with life, who cannot adjust to the reality that the world is not a huge, pink-and-blue, padded nursery in which the lions lie down with the lambs and everyone lives happily ever after."


~ Dr. William Pierce


 

"How many more times are we going to cower under tables and chairs, whimpering like mindless dogs, thinking that someone else has the responsibility to save and protect us?"

 



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